Another "what bins should I buy?" thread (4 Viewers)

[mathare]

I know you've all had more than enough of these threads so I am sorry to add another to the pile but I would like opinions on a shortlist (that's not very short!) of bins I have picked out as candidates for a 40th birthday present for the missus.

Primary Usage
The bins would mainly be used for birdwatching in the UK - in park, forest & wetlands environments I'd say. Little/no seawatching and tracking birds in flight is of secondary importance. Most birding done in the middle of the day; none done in the early morning light; some winter birding done towards sunset in the fading light.

Baseline
The missus is currently using a cast-off pair of cheap Barr & Stroud 8x42s (Skylines? They were part of the "birdwatching for dummies" kit).
Weight approx 660g
No idea on FOV
She's also borrowed my Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 10x42s and acknowledges they are brighter than hers. The narrower FOV compared to her 8x42s doesn't seem to bother her
She needs an IPD of under 60mm
She's "not sure" about the open bridge design - not ruling it out by any means, just not sure she likes it and may find it "weird"
She wants a rain cover & objective lens covers that stay on (tethered) or at least don't have to be removed

Price point
I'm looking at spending around £250, maybe up to £300

(Not very)Shortlist
In no particular order (approx. UK price shown):
Vanguard Spirit ED 10x42 (£240)
Vanguard Endeavor ED 8x42 (£220)
Vanguard Endeavor ED 10x42 (£285)
Bresser Everest 10x42 (£270)
Helios Nirvana 10x42 ED (£235)
Barr & Stroud Series 4 ED 10x42 (£155)
Barr & Stroud Series 5 FMC 10x42 ED (£190)
Carson 3D Series 10x42 (£225)
Viking 10x42 ED S (£250)
Nikon Monarch 5 8x42 (£255)

NB Most of the models I have picked out are 10x42s as they are my preference for birding, and I think the missus would prefer the extra zoom to FOV.

This is not a surprise present so she will be vetting my suggestions. Anything you can add to the debate though is appreciated :t: I'm especially interested in the value for money side of things (the tight northerner shining through there!) so if anything stands out as a bargain I'd be interested in hearing about it.

 

[FrankD]

I am surprised not to see any of the Opticron models on your list.

With that thought in mind, how about the Opticron HR WP 10x42 (or my preference for the 8x42). The manufacturer's website shows a suggested price of 259.00 but I am guessing they might be less expensive at various retailers...as is often the case. The HRWPs are very bright and very sharp plus you get that wonderful 3D effect from the porro design. They are also the only internal focus porro prism binocular available on the consumer market. Their optical performance in all but one area is only really bettered by much more expensive models.

 

[mathare]

Thanks Frank.

The Opticron product catalog has confused me in the past so they are not a brand that immediately spring to mind.

Having taken a look at the HR WP 10x42s I think the weight may be a slight issue (725g) as will the porro design - she seems to prefer a "traditional" roof bin. I said FOV wasn't that important but 89m/1000m for the Opticron 10x42s seems to be pretty poor compared to the 110m/1000m that is typical of the models I had picked out but I'm no expert - is this difference expected for porro v roof?

Another point to note is that I had picked out models with ED glass but would I be better with a more expensive brand without the ED glass? Is the ED glass at the sub-£300 price point worth it, in effect?

 

[SteveTS]

Is the ED glass at the sub-£300 price point worth it, in effect?

It can be. The NM5 8x42 ED is a marked improvement over the earlier non-ED NMs and is one that I would buy again without hesitation if I was revisiting this part of the market.

Worth taking your wife shopping and trying a few to see what fits best. I guess I wouldn't be shopping on price for this.

This is worth consideration, quote ”The more time I spend here, the more I realize that all of our observations are very individual. This, on top of sample variation and variations in technique and use seem to make meaningful comparisons impossible,” james holdsworth

Good luck with your choices.

 

[dalat]

40th birthday present for the missus.
(...)
Most birding done in the middle of the day; none done in the early morning light;

Both of this clearly suggest: 8x32 or 8x30

Have a look at the Monarch 7 8x30 (should be under 250 £ in the UK). The up-coming Zeiss Terra 8x32 should also be a nice option. And sure opticron has some good options as well (I don't know them)

 

[typo]

I know you've all had more than enough of these threads so I am sorry to add another to the pile but I would like opinions on a shortlist (that's not very short!) of bins I have picked out as candidates for a 40th birthday present for the missus.

Primary Usage
The bins would mainly be used for birdwatching in the UK - in park, forest & wetlands environments I'd say. Little/no seawatching and tracking birds in flight is of secondary importance. Most birding done in the middle of the day; none done in the early morning light; some winter birding done towards sunset in the fading light.

Baseline
The missus is currently using a cast-off pair of cheap Barr & Stroud 8x42s (Skylines? They were part of the "birdwatching for dummies" kit).
Weight approx 660g
No idea on FOV
She's also borrowed my Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 10x42s and acknowledges they are brighter than hers. The narrower FOV compared to her 8x42s doesn't seem to bother her
She needs an IPD of under 60mm
She's "not sure" about the open bridge design - not ruling it out by any means, just not sure she likes it and may find it "weird"
She wants a rain cover & objective lens covers that stay on (tethered) or at least don't have to be removed

Price point
I'm looking at spending around £250, maybe up to £300

(Not very)Shortlist
In no particular order (approx. UK price shown):
Vanguard Spirit ED 10x42 (£240)
Vanguard Endeavor ED 8x42 (£220)
Vanguard Endeavor ED 10x42 (£285)
Bresser Everest 10x42 (£270)
Helios Nirvana 10x42 ED (£235)
Barr & Stroud Series 4 ED 10x42 (£155)
Barr & Stroud Series 5 FMC 10x42 ED (£190)
Carson 3D Series 10x42 (£225)
Viking 10x42 ED S (£250)
Nikon Monarch 5 8x42 (£255)

NB Most of the models I have picked out are 10x42s as they are my preference for birding, and I think the missus would prefer the extra zoom to FOV.

This is not a surprise present so she will be vetting my suggestions. Anything you can add to the debate though is appreciated :t: I'm especially interested in the value for money side of things (the tight northerner shining through there!) so if anything stands out as a bargain I'd be interested in hearing about it.

A few random comments.

The Vanguard Spirit ED is a nice little binocular, 90g lighter than it's bigger brother but with a narrower FOV. I haven't looked around but you should find it usefully cheaper than the Endeavour ED. The latter is very good, specially for that kind of money IMO. It has silver coated prisms I believe so the colour is a little warmer than some, but it's very sharp and contrasty. It's not my favourite ergonomically.

I did try the Bresser Everest and the top of the range Montana at the end of a very long day at Birdfair and to be honest I can't remember any of the details except I liked the Everest a lot. That price looks very good.

Helios Nirvana is bettered by the above IMO.

I haven't tried those B&S models or the Carson.

The Viking ED-S did not impress at all.

The Monarch 5 may have the narrowest FOVs but what you get is good. I'm sure my wife would be persuaded by the low weight and ergonomics. The same might apply to the Opticron Natura

David

 

[FrankD]

Mathare,

You picked up on the one notable optical area where the HR WPs fall a bit short...field of view. That really isn't a porro versus roof type of concern but rather a result of the eyepiece design.

As for the weight, I never found it an issue with the HR WPs in comparison to other 8x42s in general but if weight is a concern then there are definitely lighter models out there.

The question of ED or no ED is a good point of discussion. My experience is that there are many models out there that offer non-ED glass objective designs but who also don't display much if any notable color fringing in the image. I have found the reverse to also be true. Just because a binocular uses ED glass in the design doesn't mean it is going to control color fringing well. The rest of the binocular has to be designed to take advantage of the ED objective design.

Having said that, and continuing along the Opticron discussion, you might still be able to find their now discontinued ED-X available at discounted prices. Light, bright and good CA control. Found them at one of the popular British retailers....

http://www.sherwoods-photo.com/opticron_binoculars/opticron_binoculars_field.htm

To be entirely honest with you and considering the "general idea" of what you were posting my first thought was the Opticron Discovery 8x32...until I read that last part about wanting 10x and your desire to spend a bit more than what the little Discoveries usually retail for. However, I know they offer good optical quality for the price and women, in particular, seem to prefer them because of their diminuitive size/shape/weight.

Nothing really wrong with your early choices. I have owned/tried several of them in the 8x42 version and certainly found their optical performance to be more than acceptable.

 

[Torview]

Matt, I think this covers all your listed points, and is a real steal at this price.................


http://www.uttings.co.uk/p107437-opticron-imagic-bga-se-rp-10x42-binoculars-30480/#.VQGvc9KsWSo


John.

 

[mathare]

Both of this clearly suggest: 8x32 or 8x30

I know what you're saying but neither of us get on with compact bins - we both find x30s and x32s too small. That said, I will put the Monarch 7s and the Zeiss option to her to see what she thinks. If we can get hands-on with them (there is an In Focus at the local WWT reserve we go to pretty regularly) and the view wows then she may become a convert but I have to say, at this stage I am not convinced that would happen.

 

[mathare]

Thanks to everyone :t: It genuinely all helps!

John - thanks for making the shortlist longer with the Opticrons; they certainly look promising and are worthy of a place on the list
David - nice to get opinions from someone who has been hands-on with some of these models. Personally I think the Helios Nirvana look ugly compared to the others so if they are also bettered optically that seems like one to eliminate.
Frank - the Opticron ED-X become another possible, based on that - thanks!

Finally, at the risk of upsetting her if she reads this, the missus isn't a typically dainty girly girl who needs a smaller set of bins. She seems happy enough with her cheapy B&S 8x42s and has never complained about the weight, or the quality of the view actually. But I think there is a bit more in terms of quality of view she could get from a new set of bins and hopefully get more out of birding because of that. The most important features for her are IPD, ergonomics (including not being too heavy), the objective lens covers and the look of them - it's me pushing things like FOV

 

[typo]

Mathare,

It isn't often I disagree with Frank but the ED-X has never been one of my favourites in the Opticron lineup. However it is definitely worth considering at the Uttings clearance price of £179, but not for me at the Sherwoods asking price.

David

 

[FrankD]

mathare,

My apologies if I unintentionally implied something with my suggestion of the Discovery 8x32s. It was not my intention. My point in suggesting them was rather that their size is more of a good fit for women in general because women tend to have smaller hands and the Discovery is smaller though not quite as dainty as a true compact model.

David,

I don't think we necessarily disagree on this model. My suggestion was based on the parameters set by the original poster..not necessarily a personal favorite of mine.

 

[mathare]

My apologies if I unintentionally implied something with my suggestion of the Discovery 8x32s. It was not my intention. My point in suggesting them was rather that their size is more of a good fit for women in general because women tend to have smaller hands and the Discovery is smaller though not quite as dainty as a true compact model.

Oh crikey, no, far from it Frank. Not a jot of offence taken and I didn't think you were implying anything at all. Worry not.

The reason I said what I said was more a clarification of the fact that they are for the missus isn't really a factor, in my mind, other than they are not for me. The only significant factor arising from her gender is probably the IPD - which seems to be difficult to obtain for some models, for some reason, but that's a whole different discussion for another day.

She doesn't need lightweight compact bins (unlike my mother, for example, who certainly would) and prefers a full-size roof bin that feels "right" in the hands but I certainly appreciate other options being suggested. Full-size roofs are my preference, and I like 10x42s, and given it's me buying them for her the shortlist is dominated by optics I would consider were they for me. I'm certainly open to other suggestions and things I may not have thought about.

 

[dalat]

given it's me buying them for her the shortlist is dominated by optics I would consider were they for me.

I don't want to imply anything about how good you are at assessing the preferences of your missus But I often do as you say in the quoted bit above, only to come to the realisation lateron that I was way of the mark :-O

Women very often love the cuteness factor of a 32 binocular. As those are usually not fiddly as compact binoculars in the 20 or 25 class, but very close, if not equal in handling and performance to full size bins, 32 is often the preferred size of women.

I'd really let her have a look at a decent 8x30/32 like the Nikon Monarch (has a huge FOV) and see the reaction...

 

[ads]

mathare,

The Vanguard Endeavour ED 10x42 is is very good optically, and the field of view is reasonable for a 10x (the 8x version's FOV is on the narrow side).

It seems very well made, has a quality feel and good ergonomics.

But it is on the heavy side (809g with rain cover and objective lens covers, actual measurement). -> Harder to carry, more tiring to hold, but less vibration.

But what may rule it out totally is that the IPD may not go narrow enough for her. I'm not sure what the spec is, but I measure it right around 60 mm. Do you know the exact IPD she needs? Certainly there wouldn't be much leeway. It's right on the edge for my face.

Regards

NOTE: Originally I had copied-and-pasted "Spirit ED" instead of "Endeavour ED", which is what I meant. I only have access to an Endeavour ED.

 

[SteveTS]

Women very often love the cuteness factor of a 32 binocular. As those are usually not fiddly as compact binoculars in the 20 or 25 class, but very close, if not equal in handling and performance to full size bins, 32 is often the preferred size of women

Tell that to Melissa ..

 

[SteveTS]

I'm certainly open to other suggestions and things I may not have thought about.

Just to throw in a few others.

Sportsman have the Vortex Diamondback 8x42 for £130.00, Bob (caesar) likes these alot and may chime in, and the two entry level Minox 10x42s (beloved of bow hunters), the Minox BF 10x42 BR for £120.00, and the Minox BV 10x42 BR for £122.00 (these two 10x42s look very similar). This link and scroll down :

http://www.sportsmanguncentre.co.uk/category/Optics/Binoculars/v-list/s-pricedesc/r-51/p-51/

So much choice !

 

[typo]

mathare,

The Vanguard Spirit ED 10x42 is is very good optically, and the field of view is reasonable for a 10x (the 8x version's FOV is on the narrow side).

It seems very well made, has a quality feel and good ergonomics.

But it is on the heavy side (802g with rain cover and objective lens covers, actual measurement). -> Harder to carry, more tiring to hold, but less vibration.

Ads, I think you picked up the wrong binocular or you need a new scale.

The Vanguard website lists the naked 10x42 weights as :
Spirit ED 640g
Endeavour ED 730g
Endeavour EDII 770g

I've handled all of them and the Spirit ED is without question smaller and lighter than the other two. My EDII with rain guard and objective covers tips my scale at 812g which sounds spot on!

David

 

[ads]

Ads, I think you you picked up the wrong binocular or you need a new scale.
David

Hi David,
My scale is quite accurate. Manufacturer's specs should be taken with a bag of salt. Overall, the distribution of error from real world measurements vs. the manufacturer's spec tend to be highly skewed towards the more desirable side of the measurement. This is not true with all manufacturers, but in general, it's the case. Another binocular spec, FOV, is often exaggerated. Often manufacturers do not even pull a sample of the product from the production line to generate the specs of the product. (I once had a high-end backpack from The North Face that weighed 26% over-spec. The weight measurement was off by about 500 g!)

 

[Alexis Powell]

...The only significant factor arising from her gender is probably the IPD - which seems to be difficult to obtain for some models, for some reason, but that's a whole different discussion for another day..

Why another day? It's a critical factor, and as Birdforum regulars know, one of my favorite campaigns is advocating for smaller minimum IPD spec. In the past, quite a few porro models allowed for IPD to be set below 56 mm. These days, most porros (both full size and reverse) and nearly all roofs except pocket models only adjust down to 56 mm, and some go no lower than 58 mm. Zeiss' bins above the Terra level are notable for their low IPD limits, but they are beyond your budget.

If your wife has found some bins that do not have tight enough IPD, her IPD may be within the 56 to 58 mm bracket, in which case you will find quite a few bins that work for her (since most models go to 56 mm), at least for viewing things at distance (i.e. when eyes are not crossed). But if she has a preference for full-sized bins, it is possible that her IPD is even lower, and she is using the inside radii of the exit pupils (eyes not centered). I have a friend with 54 mm IPD who had only one bin that she was comfortable with, a 7x42 roof with 56 mm IPD, and didn't know why, but that is the explanation we came to.

I recommend you measure your wife's IPD so you know what you are dealing with in the product search. You can do it by holding up a ruler, but if it were me, I'd have her use an 8x20 pocket roof model on a target about 20 ft away, get the IPD just right, and measure the setting she uses off the bin (distance from inside edge of one ocular to outside edge of the other).

--AP