AOS to discard patronyms in English names (1 Viewer)

[Mysticete]

I've posted in the 'other' thread on the merits of this project, in deference to the OP's wishes. Taking this insane process to its logical conclusion, I can't help thinking the AOC should be taking the opportunity to expunge all taxonomically opaque inappropriate names imposed by white European settlers, not just eponyms.
They could start with 'warblers', given the fact that they are totally unrelated to Old World taxa, and think of an alternative name...and get rid of 'redstart' at the same time as an Old English name for an unrelated species. They can keep Whitestarts and Waterthrushes- there must be a suitable indigenous name to apply to Parulidae?

I mean, "your" warblers aren't even all warblers really, so lets not go down that road. If you think eponymous names are bad, just try to imagine the scale of changes needed to make them "taxonomically correct"

 

[Mysticete]

I will wager that there will be a serious effort to remove eponyms from the Latin as well, at some point. It is instructive to visit the "bird names for birds" website, where you can read the manifesto of the organization that spearheaded the efforts leading to yesterday's news.

From their FAQ, emphasis mine:

They would have to take down the ICZN, which is a far far more difficult goal than convincing folks to change common names, which have no strict codes of regulation.

 

[kb57]

I mean, "your" warblers aren't even all warblers really, so lets not go down that road. If you think eponymous names are bad, just try to imagine the scale of changes needed to make them "taxonomically correct"

I agree that Old world warbler taxonomy has moved on and split what was previously regarded as a homogeneous group - in particular the Sylviid babblers arguably shouldn't be called warblers any more. But the point stands that it is an externally imposed name by European colonists who saw something small and yellowy-green and called it a 'warbler', so while you're ditching Wilson and Audubon, why not get rid of 'warbler' too?.
Of course we are never going to get taxonomically correct names, not least because taxonomy is in a state of flux - I remember when it was proposed to change bearded 'tit' to 'parrotbill', now understood to be totally inaccurate.

 

[Equaliser]

What a load of arrogance from the Americans who even have difficulty spelling in English anyway! I already dislike loon and jaeger which have been foisted on European lists so heaven knows what nonsensical tripe the woke yanks will derive now

 

[pbjosh]

They could start with 'warblers', given the fact that they are totally unrelated to Old World taxa, and think of an alternative name...and get rid of 'redstart' at the same time as an Old English name for an unrelated species. They can keep Whitestarts and Waterthrushes- there must be a suitable indigenous name to apply to Parulidae?

Two issues here:

First - is Warbler a taxonomically monophyletic definition, or does it refer to a particular morfotype / ecotype of small bird? In some cases, I think there is value in keeping some groups monophyletic. IE, if a bird turns out to not be a Cotinga, or Babbler, or Antbird, perhaps worth preserving the meaning of those. However Tanager, Warbler, Flycatcher I think are pretty broadly understood to mean a certain shape and behavior more or less rather than a monophyletic grouping.

Second - those birds are called Warblers entirely due to the Brits who colonized the rest of the world and applied their names to the birds they and their progeny encountered along the way. So at some point, this logic of "my version of English is correct, Warblers are old-world, American Robin isn't a Robin, etc" is sort of comical and I'm not sure where it gets you but whatever.

 

[pbjosh]

What a load of arrogance from the Americans who even have difficulty spelling in English anyway! I already dislike loon and jaeger which have been foisted on European lists so heaven knows what nonsensical tripe the woke yanks will derive now

No offense but this logic very conveniently ignores the fact that Britain should have either kept it's colonial ambitions in check and or should have kept control of it's colonies if it wants some claim to defining the English language. You so kindly shared it with the world and it got out of your control. Now it's a living thing, you're a minority of speakers, as are Americans for what it is worth, so you can either shout into the wind or recognize the modern world and move along.

 

[kb57]

Two issues here:

First - is Warbler a taxonomically monophyletic definition, or does it refer to a particular morfotype / ecotype of small bird? In some cases, I think there is value in keeping some groups monophyletic. IE, if a bird turns out to not be a Cotinga, or Babbler, or Antbird, perhaps worth preserving the meaning of those. However Tanager, Warbler, Flycatcher I think are pretty broadly understood to mean a certain shape and behavior more or less rather than a monophyletic grouping.

Second - those birds are called Warblers entirely due to the Brits who colonized the rest of the world and applied their names to the birds they and their progeny encountered along the way. So at some point, this logic of "my version of English is correct, Warblers are old-world, American Robin isn't a Robin, etc" is sort of comical and I'm not sure where it gets you but whatever.

I actually agree with your point, I was playing devil's advocate here by suggesting the logical corollary of excising colonial eponyms was to also excise inappropriate English names for unrelated taxa imported by British colonists.

I also think we need to move away from parochial names and start to use internationally agreed ones more often, as I've said in another post I'm happy eBird listing with murres and loons, and totally relaxed about the fact that Blackburnian warbler is not a Phylloscopus warbler confined to central Lancashire.

 

[jurek]

If people would seriously care about bird names, let the birding community change names between themselves. Maybe people would genuinely switch from the name Kingbird to Freedom Bird? Just like Americans in the 2000s tried to rename French fries into Freedom fries?

Freedom fries - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

AOS may be making itself look stupid, claiming “the jurisdiction” over birds in America, and the right to tell people how they should call sparrows and thrushes. Precisely the kind of behavior which we find repulsive in people in the past.

Still, inequality in the USA is a big problem. Our friends in the USA bear responsibility of changing it, but not in names of sparrows but in reality. Otherwise people will fear to go out birding and wild birds will be eaten by those who can poorly afford normal food.

 

[cajanuma]

Waking up this morning with a genuine question:

Will mythological characters be discarded? If so, Calliope Hummingbird should be added too I suppose.

The fact that this is a genuine question underlines how ridiculous the whole process is. Stripe-gorgeted Hummingbird? Even so this would only apply to males, as do many other descriptive names. Should Black-throated Blue Warbler be thrown out?

 

[Mysticete]

Should also be emphasized here that the new names will be up for vote, so the birding public will have some say over the matter, just not on keeping existing names.

 

[jurek]

The fact that this is a genuine question underlines how ridiculous the whole process is.

Following their logic, mythological names are practically all from Western mythology. Say's Phoebe, Lucifer Hummingbird, Harpy Eagle and so on. As well as lemur, Venus flytrap and other non-bird creatures.

I don't know if there are any birds named after non-European mythologies.

 

[Surreybirder]

Political correctness hits the birding world, IMO.
Let's hang on to Montagu's harrier in Europe - unless Monty was a disgrace.
But very few people 'in the field' take any notice of the ever-increasing number of bird name changes. I've never heard anyone say "Oh look a common house martin." So I very much doubt if they'll use Western house martin or whatever.

 

[Kratter]

Should also be emphasized here that the new names will be up for vote, so the birding public will have some say over the matter, just not on keeping existing names.

A new English Names committee of the AOS will make the decisions, but the public will be polled for input. Kind of like what the NACC did for the meadowlark split.

 

[Phil Andrews]

Political correctness hits the birding world, IMO.
Let's hang on to Montagu's harrier in Europe - unless Monty was a disgrace.
But very few people 'in the field' take any notice of the ever-increasing number of bird name changes. I've never heard anyone say "Oh look a common house martin." So I very much doubt if they'll use Western house martin or whatever.

George Montagu (naturalist) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Welsh Peregrine]

Following their logic, mythological names are practically all from Western mythology. Say's Phoebe, Lucifer Hummingbird, Harpy Eagle and so on. As well as lemur, Venus flytrap and other non-bird creatures.

I don't know if there are any birds named after non-European mythologies.

Quetzal?

 

[Lerxst]

I don't know if there are any birds named after non-European mythologies.

Goliath Heron is interesting. I cannot imagine that one being changed, since it honors an indigenous person (real or not) oppressed and murdered by an Israeli colonizer.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Hah...I still refuse to use anything other than Satanic Nightjar!

So named after the call and had you heard it on a moonless night in a Sumatran forest, you'd know why!

 

[Andy Adcock]

Goliath Heron is interesting. I cannot imagine that one being changed, since it honors an indigenous person (real or not) oppressed and murdered by an Israeli colonizer.

As we are involved in the sciences, all religious references should be struck down unless we allow them under the umbrella of myth

 

[Andy Adcock]

I mean, "your" warblers aren't even all warblers really, so lets not go down that road. If you think eponymous names are bad, just try to imagine the scale of changes needed to make them "taxonomically correct"

Which ones?

 

[Andy Adcock]

A new English Names committee of the AOS will make the decisions, but the public will be polled for input. Kind of like what the NACC did for the meadowlark split.

And people such as ourselves should be actively encouraged to utilise this chance because you can be damned sure, that woke lot will be all over it.