Are all sparrows of the devil? (2 Viewers)

[chris butterworth]

They are notorious agricultural pests that attack many agricultural crops such as grains and fruits.

The same 'excuse' was used as a justification for killing Carolina Parakeets, and was the initial reason behind the slaughter of Bobolink in the rice fields of the Gulf states. House Sparrows are granivorous, of course they eat grain, so do a lot of native N.A. species.

They are carriers of a wide variety of diseases, including West Nile Virus, chlamydiosis, salmonellosis, transmissible gastroenteritis, tuberculosis, encephalitis, and internal parasites such as toxoplasmosis and trichomoniasis. Not to ignore a wide variety of ticks, mites, fleas and lice.

Most of which would not have been present in the original stock introduced. There is, AFAIK, no proof that House Sparrows are more able to pass on disease to human's than, say, Bluebird sp or American Robins. As for Chlamydiosis? Too easy.

Starlings and these "sparrows" (which are actually finches) are two of the worst non-native invasive pest species in the entire USA, if not THE worst.

House Sparrows are actually Sparrows, not Finches. New World "Sparrows" are closely related to New World "Blackbirds", "Orioles" and "Warblers.

I think you'll find Rattus norvegicus |may be a bit "worse".

Sending some of our version back to where they came from could very well result in similar destructiveness in their original habitat.

Seeing the way Eastern Gray Squirrel behave in the UK, compared to the way they do in their natal area, I'll do you a swap. But that would be pointless. The Squirrel was brought to the UK by a British person, so no blame can be attributed to you so theres no reason for you to 'suffer', while House Sparrows were taken to the USA by ..................

 

[Robin Edwards]

If we, in a place the size of the UK, cannot eradicate Canada Goose ( which, occasionally, do pose a health hazard by polluting drinking water ), or Eastern Gray Squirrel, or New Zealanders with their all out campaigns against Possums, Stoats etc., you've got no chance with Sparrows and Starlings.

I agree and think it is fair to say to Soj that there would be many, many invasive species in the US and North America that would warrant attention ahead of or rather than the Eurpoean HS. Add to that the environmental damages that afflict the world-over and I'd suggest saving your anger for a different root-cause.
Any argument that considers any species of fauna or flora as being "of the devil" is somewhat self defeating in my opinion.

 

[Robin Edwards]

I lived in a rural area where the nearest neighbor was over a mile away. Plenty of house sparrows. They are notorious agricultural pests that attack many agricultural crops such as grains and fruits. They foul feed for horses and cattle. They are carriers of a wide variety of diseases, including West Nile Virus, chlamydiosis, salmonellosis, transmissible gastroenteritis, tuberculosis, encephalitis, and internal parasites such as toxoplasmosis and trichomoniasis. Not to ignore a wide variety of ticks, mites, fleas and lice.

.

I'm interested in your theory Soj of why such a long list of diseases has not resulted in areas of Europe and Middle East not waging war on such dangerous avian pests in past millenia?

The southern Arava desert of Israel hosts large raucous flocks of mixed House & Spanish Sparrows that don't seem to have had such a devastating effect on cattle, grain or human water sources as you ward against here?

 

[A2GG]

wow...a lot has happened since I last checked this thread...a lot of
hate for our House Sparrow. Yes I said "our" HS. The species has been
here for many generations and deserve their "citizenship". It's not true
that they "do not belong here". They have adapted and mastered the environment
living among us bipedal animals.

When I first became interested in bird watching and wanted to put out feeders I used
to go to a local wild bird store (closed now). I asked the owner what this little
cage/trap contraption was used for. He said it was used to trap House Sparrows and then
gas them. I was appalled and ask why. He said ' they aren't native, are pests and too aggressive and
people use the traps to kill them in their yards'. What the hell? How cruel and futile.
Yes, they hog the feeders and can be quite aggressive, but they have their adapted strategy for survival
and are no less interesting to observe and learn about than our other birds.

 

[Jos Stratford]

So, as on the numerous websites in the US, the facts as as they say, yes? Sparrows kill simply for the sake of killing? Can displace any bird?

And as for methods, is it responsible for Audubon and all the purple martin/bluebird fanclubs to publish and encourage lay persons to use traps which they freely admit can catch any species, native of otherwise? Adding the caveat, check traps at least once every 24 hours is a joke - even if the trapped birds don't die in that 24 hours, and even if the average lay person doesn't forget to check every day, then still it is a joke - if the bird is breeding, 24 hours trapped is potentially going to lead to death of birds in nests waiting to be fed.

And methods of dispatch, put the birds in a plastic bag and attach to your car exhaust. Stand to be corrected, but pretty sure that would be illegal in much of Europe!

If Audubon and conservation bodies think the species should be culled, then an organised, planned and effective strategy should be devised at a large scale, not a campaign of misinformation to try and get a patchwork of untrained persons to randomly kill birds at their particular locality (a totally ineffective means as neighbouring populations will be untouched).

How about a citation from Audubon, or one of these other fan clubs you mention that sustains that allegation.

I don't find that being said on any reliable web site. Not on an Audubon Society site, not on Cornell. I haven't even come across it on somebody's bird blog.

Citation?
....
Ignoring the "campaign of misinformation" strawman .....

It is not really necessary to find citations to find the language of misinformation - in his posts on this thread, Soj does this:

For example:

1. "They do, in fact, drive off any bird from a nesting site they decide they want - or more usually kill it and destroy the eggs."
Well, that is an exaggeration, any US bird? I don't think so!

2. They are notorious agricultural pests that attack many agricultural crops such as grains and fruits. They foul feed for horses and cattle. They are carriers of a wide variety of diseases, including West Nile Virus, chlamydiosis, salmonellosis, transmissible gastroenteritis, tuberculosis, encephalitis, and internal parasites such as toxoplasmosis and trichomoniasis. Not to ignore a wide variety of ticks, mites, fleas and lice.
Inflammatory language, but as Fugl points out, not really the reality that this is a major issue - half of the New York population should be dead by now if we really believe House Sparrows are such potent carriers of all of these. Any evidence that House Sparrows are any worse than native species such as Red-winged Blackbird in regard to any of these points?

3. "Keep in mind - the European House Swallows that are here now are not the same as those that were originally imported. They have adapted to much harsher weather, and in other ways as well. Sending some of our version back to where they came from could very well result in similar destructiveness in their original habitat."
Complete rubbish. Regarding adapting to harsher weather, House Sparrows in the Old World occur from the the coasts of the Arctic Ocean to the deserts of the Middle East and everywhere in between - where exactly is the climate harsher in the USA, and what exactly have the adaptations been? As for causing destruction if 'returned' to the Old World, what is this speculation based on?

4. "Given that ALL bird populations are declining, my time, money, and effort goes to the bluebirds and other songbirds, and the house sparrow gets nada."
False, not ALL bird populations in the US are declining. Many are increasing, and the decline in most of the others has nothing whatsover to do with House Sparrows.

 

[Jos Stratford]

As citations were requested however, specifically on Audubon sites that publish misinformation and mention of the methods of killing I quoted:

Audubon of Omaha

Misinformation: "There are estimates that there are twice as many [house] sparrows across the country as all other native songbirds combined - a really sad statistic considering the house sparrow is not even a native bird of North America".

Well, that is rubbish - Cornell puts the North American House Sparrow population at about half that of American Robin alone, so not exactly accurate, is it?


Killing methods: The same article mentions putting sparrows into a plastic bag and holding to a car exhaust and also throwing the bird to the ground with enough force to kill them instantly. Perhaps I am wrong, but I would seriously question these as the most humane methods of dispatch.

The same article on the Audubon Society website talks of ground traps and states "It is very helpful to have a House Sparrow in the holding compartment of the trap as it helps to draw other House Sparrows to the trap … The more birds you have in your holding compartment, the better luck you'll have drawing sparrows into the trap … Some of the birds will die in the trap during the first or second day of captivity, but the rest who accept the food and water will live for months." So again, no problem for Audubon to host an article encouraging lay persons to overcrowd traps in the full knowledge that some will die, presumably a lingering death if taking a day or two. Humane?

 

[Jos Stratford]

And my final point, with Audobon and so many other organisations encouraging lay persons to engage in this sort of unorganised control, how confident can we be that the average garden birder/bluebird enthusiast or whatever is fully capable of identifying the catch correctly?

In the UK at least, it is not exactly uncommon that passive birdwatchers fail to differentiate between, for example, Dunnocks and sparrows, two unrelated birds. I have full respect for birdwatchers in the US, but I cannot imagine it is very different - so how many native sparrows are accidentally killed by enthusiastic house sparrow haters?

 

[ptickner]

how confident can we be that the average garden birder/bluebird enthusiast or whatever is fully capable of identifying the catch correctly?

Judging by a lot of the posts in the ID forum, not very, especially when it comes to females and juveniles.

On a side note, I think it is important to comment on Audubon Society websites since they have been frequently referred to in the discussion. There are hundreds of local chapters, many of which have their own websites, which are only very loosely organized under the national organization. It appears that most, if not all, references in this discussion come from only 2 local chapters, Omaha and Tulsa, that I don't think fairly represent the Audubon Society as a whole.

This has become quite the discussion, with some pretty strong opinions. As I said earlier, I feed them, I watch them, and even have a pair nesting on my property. Do I wish they weren't here? Sure, but I could never kill any of them, and since there are 10s of millions of them I don't think it would do any good anyway. I provide alternate food sources for other birds as well as nest boxes with smaller openings. Its hard for me to blame the birds, as they don't know they're not supposed to be here.

 

[Bird_Bill]

As citations were requested however, specifically on Audubon sites that publish misinformation and mention of the methods of killing I quoted:

Killing methods: The same article mentions putting sparrows into a plastic bag and holding to a car exhaust and also throwing the bird to the ground with enough force to kill them instantly. Perhaps I am wrong, but I would seriously question these as the most humane methods of dispatch.

The same article on the Audubon Society website talks of ground traps and states "It is very helpful to have a House Sparrow in the holding compartment of the trap as it helps to draw other House Sparrows to the trap … The more birds you have in your holding compartment, the better luck you'll have drawing sparrows into the trap … Some of the birds will die in the trap during the first or second day of captivity, but the rest who accept the food and water will live for months." So again, no problem for Audubon to host an article encouraging lay persons to overcrowd traps in the full knowledge that some will die, presumably a lingering death if taking a day or two. Humane?

There's no endorsement by Audubon, but rather merely quoting some methodology used,
with a discretionary statement beforehand.
Put in the context of location and in the grain belt, I don't necessarily condone it,
but I can understand why the Omaha, Nebraska Audubon chapter included it.

 

[chris butterworth]

I've seen quite a few comments about invasive species such as Ruddy Duck and Canada Geese in Europe, but what kind of magnitude are we talking about?

The last figures I have to hand, from the 2010/11WeBS counts (Wetland Bird Survey ) is a total of c.150 Ruddy Duck ( there has been a concerted cull of Ruddy Duck in Europe in order to prerve the genetic integrity of White-headed Duck ) and 190, 000 Canada Goose. Not all waters are surveyed but enough to give a lower estimate. 190, 000 Canada Geese may seem a drop in the ocean compared to the number of House Sparrows or Starlings in North America but, if you scale England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland ( the Republic has its own count scheme ) to the size of USA and Canada then that's a hell of a lot of birds.

 

[Troubador]

Native where? As of when?

A few years back all the continents were jumbled up down near the South Pole and undoubtedly species moved between these land masses more easily in those days. Tectonic drift meant these land masses drifted apart and eventually along came man with this idea that species belong where they are now (ie are native) and they don't belong anywhere else because that is obviously wrong.

For sure mankind has facilitated movement of species around the world and that has caused all kinds of problems to local species and human economies. But we see it this way because of our short time perspective. The arrival of new species by virtue of say a pregnant female surviving a water crossing on a floating log or by the eventual arise of a land bridge over millenia, probably always had an impact on the local fauna which evolution and natural selection sorted out millenia before man arrived and catalogued the local wildlife and thought everything is in balance here and we musn't disturb it. Not realising that today's apparant stasis is an illusion, a mere pause in the development of new ecosystems with new catalogues of species.

I could wish that Grey Squirrels had never have arrived here and the Aussies certainly wish they had never got rabbits and possibly native Americans could have got along just fine without all these pesky Old World Homo sapiens that came to North America, pushing out native Americans from the sources of food, stealing all the best nesting sites and bringing a host of diseases.

Lee

 

[fugl]

A few years back all the continents were jumbled up down near the South Pole and undoubtedly species moved between these land masses more easily in those days. Tectonic drift meant these land masses drifted apart and eventually along came man with this idea that species belong where they are now (ie are native) and they don't belong anywhere else because that is obviously wrong.

For sure mankind has facilitated movement of species around the world and that has caused all kinds of problems to local species and human economies. But we see it this way because of our short time perspective. The arrival of new species by virtue of say a pregnant female surviving a water crossing on a floating log or by the eventual arise of a land bridge over millenia, probably always had an impact on the local fauna which evolution and natural selection sorted out millenia before man arrived and catalogued the local wildlife and thought everything is in balance here and we musn't disturb it. Not realising that today's apparant stasis is an illusion, a mere pause in the development of new ecosystems with new catalogues of species.

I could wish that Grey Squirrels had never have arrived here and the Aussies certainly wish they had never got rabbits and possibly native Americans could have got along just fine without all these pesky Old World Homo sapiens that came to North America, pushing out native Americans from the sources of food, stealing all the best nesting sites and bringing a host of diseases.

Lee

Ah, the God's eye view where it all eventually comes out in the wash! No thread on a topic such as this is complete without it.

 

[KristieNat]

The House Sparrows have recently "taken over" my feeders as well. It happened as soon as I started putting out birdseed that had millet in it. I think that really attracts them; before I had been using a mix with only sunflower seeds, safflower seeds, raisins, and a few other things, but no millet. I switched back to this seed mix a few days ago and I have definitely seen less House Sparrows. In general I don't mind them, but considering that they have the tendency to overwhelm other birds at the feeders, and the fact that they may even kick native birds out of their nesting cavities, I'd really like to avoid attracting large numbers of them.

The Song Sparrows also appeared after putting out the millet; I hadn't seen them since winter. They're definitely not as aggressive as House Sparrows and don't seem to travel in disruptive flocks. From what I've seen, they're more solitary and like to stay low near cover (like bushes) while foraging. They usually stay on the ground, eating the leftover seed from my tube feeder. Never a problem for me.

 

[ptickner]

190, 000 Canada Geese may seem a drop in the ocean compared to the number of House Sparrows or Starlings in North America but, if you scale England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland ( the Republic has its own count scheme ) to the size of USA and Canada then that's a hell of a lot of birds.

While not a drop in the ocean, especially considering the size of the bird, it is really only less than 1/10th of our Starling numbers. If my math is correct, you basically have 0.78 geese per km² (243400 km² / 190000 birds). Given the most recent Cornell estimate of 200 million Starlings in the US and Canada, that comes out to 10.09 Starlings per km² (19.812 million km² / 200 million birds).

 

[fugl]

While not a drop in the ocean, especially considering the size of the bird, it is really only less than 1/10th of our Starling numbers. If my math is correct, you basically have 0.78 geese per km² (243400 km² / 190000 birds). Given the most recent Cornell estimate of 200 million Starlings in the US and Canada, that comes out to 10.09 Starlings per km² (19.812 million km² / 200 million birds).

Biomass, however, turns it around completely, the "average" Canada Goose being approximately 40 times heavier than the average Starling.

 

[Troubador]

Ah, the God's eye view where it all eventually comes out in the wash! No thread on a topic such as this is complete without it.

LOL, Hi Fred, you would be St Peter then? o

Lee

 

[Aloof1]

Feed Safflower only, it will cut 90% of your Sparrows fast. Some will still eat it but Larger Doves, mean Female House Finches will knock the rest out quickly. Don't feed anything else because the Sparrows will adapt to it, I even seen a Female eat upside down from the best Nyjer feeder on the market...amazingly adaptive. This is the time of the Year when Sparrows take over, it is mostly because every single sparrow may have three fledglings with it. So if you normally get 30 sparrows at once then you could be seeing 90 now. Depending on where you live this could just be the start of Summer Numbers game. By Me I get Sparrows in numbers then Grackles then Red-wings then Starlings...all in crazy number each. This is one major reason why I don't care to feed birds in the summer, I still do just not as go-for as I am in Spring or Fall or even winter.

Sparrows do great in America because of how Americans live, We provide the with the perfect habitat. First we clear all the Grass, Pond, and older native trees out. Then we Dig deep to put in our sewer pipes knocking out more habitat. Then come the noisy trucks and people for months if not years. Finally once our homes are built we pile on a nice tar road, put up stop signs to make more noise, put in street lights and landscaping lights for some good light pollution, and top it off With some baby trees that will take 20-30 years to mature...if they even make it.

So now that we people have knocked all the natural more "native" birds out, we also knocked out lots of ground living animals that higher up in the food chain birds depend on. We brought in cars with more noise and pollution to further kick out any that may of stood around this long. Then we made sure there would not be a suitable home until years in the future.

Where there are homes there must be stores....big stores...with big parking lots!!...more natural birds gone.

This is where the House Sparrow comes in. They love us...well the remain far enough away from us to live along side of us perfectly. They love solar and winter pool covers for drinking and bathing. They love our bushes and hedges. And the totally go crazy for our parking lots and our stores.

Go into any local forest by me, you might see one or two house sparrows but that is about it. Where humans are not around neither is the House Sparrow. We are the true invasive species!

 

[KyleM]

I am still honestly amazed at how much of a 'problem' these things can be to some. The irony is, when I am out in the wild, not the urban zones, it is rare to see a house sparrow, and even rarer a starling. I look at it to a much greater extent as a bird able to capitalize on our expansion, but become relatively dependent on us in turn.

I am with Aloof, these populations aren't displacing our native birds, we are.

 

[babycakes]

The numbers are seriously falling in Britain, and the Starlings...

The Grey squirrel don't help either....Killed so many of our RED ONES..:C

I HAVE seen Grey squirrels come in our garden, and look for sparrow eggs, dunnocks, robins eggs.:-C


I am frankly sick of them....Wish all would just go away... they carry lung worm disease.....never should come to OUR Britain..:t:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_Campaign enuff said...:t:

 

[Peter C.]

I wondered how long it would take for someone to bring up the Sparrow War... "thinning", indeed - and look what good it did them.