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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Are the lemons just miscollimated cherries? (2 Viewers)

Wehr said:
A Leica Trinovid cannot outperform a Leica Ultravid in sharpness. How should it do this?
I have seen it with my own eyes and believe me I was not happy about it at all. How? I wish I knew.


Wehr said:
A Zeiss Classic better than a Trinovid? Nonsense. Same nonsense if somebody says a Leitz Trinovid outperform a Zeiss FL.
Maybe not better, but at least equal based on the several times I compared an 8x30 Classic to an 8x32 Trino. I would tend to agree about the Trino vs FL.


Wehr said:
THE MOST ANNOYING CRITISISM DURING A DISCUSSION IS DONE BY MENTIONING FACTS.
You may want to be a little annoyed now (just a little bit).
 
Bill Atwood said:
I have seen it with my own eyes and believe me I was not happy about it at all. How? I wish I knew.



Maybe not better, but at least equal based on the several times I compared an 8x30 Classic to an 8x32 Trino. I would tend to agree about the Trino vs FL.



You may want to be a little annoyed now (just a little bit).


Bill,

After AC posted his Trinovid/Ultravid commentary I looked at every Trinovid I could find. Not one 7X42 Trinovid was sharper than my 7X42 Ultravid. The Trinovid's darker contrast gives an initial impression of increased sharpness but, upon detailed inspection, the Ultravid is every bit as sharp with improved brightness, contrast and color. I have no trouble believing, however, that someone would prefer the more subdued Trinovid image. Sometimes, I get the impression that the Ultravid is just a tad too bright.

John
 
Bill Atwood said:
John,

For $1,600 (nonrefundable) you can have my 8x32 BAs and 8x42 Ultravids so you can see for yourself.


Bill,

did you compare these two bins (8x32BA and 8x42Ultravid)? You cannot do that. You have to compare two 8x32 (Trinovid and Ultravid) or two 8x42 (Trinovid and Ultravid).

Of course I can't prove it from here, but the difference you saw was very likely caused by the larger EP of the Ultravid in combination with your eye's pupil aberrations in the outer regions and the fact, that you automatically adjust the inter-pupil-distance of the 8x32 (4mm EP) much more carefully than that of the 8x42 (5.25mm EP). If the adjustment is a little bit imperfect, bins with larger EP will lose, while bins with smaller EP will show you an obviously inconsistent picture.

Walter
 
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Yes I DID compare these 2 and yes I CAN. I don't care about all the EP theory textbook gobbledygook. My old scratched 8x32 BAs are sharper than my new 8x42 Ultravids. The difference is very slight, but it is there.
 
Bill,

Walter is right, it’s unfair to compare binoculars having different exit pupil sizes. The Taks 22x60 give the most impressive image I have ever seen, but it’s due to the 2.7 mm exit pupil.



Wehr said:
Let us keep our feet on the ground: of course there is sample variation, but in this class it is not visible (as long as there are no defects).

A Leica Trinovid cannot outperform a Leica Ultravid in sharpness. How should it do this?

A Zeiss Classic better than a Trinovid? Nonsense. Same nonsense if somebody says a Leitz Trinovid outperform a Zeiss FL.


THE MOST ANNOYING CRITISISM DURING A DISCUSSION IS DONE BY MENTIONING FACTS.


Walter
Walter,

Despite I have not fully understood your post, I would like to know your opinion about this kind of review :
http://www.kikkertspesialisten.no/pdf/test7x.pdf

Resolution (opplosning "skarphet") is rated :
11 for Fujinon 7x50
11- for Swarowski SLC 7x50
10+ for Opticron 7x50 marine
10 for Steiner 7x50 Amiral gold
10- for Zeiss 7x50
……
Sample variation, hair splitting with an axe, or unreliable review ?
In an old version of this review, the Zeiss Classic 10x40 was in the middle of the table, rated only 9-. So these ratings are definitely useless, but why ?

Jean-Charles
 
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Bill Atwood said:
Yes I DID compare these 2 and yes I CAN. I don't care about all the EP theory textbook gobbledygook. My old scratched 8x32 BAs are sharper than my new 8x42 Ultravids. The difference is very slight, but it is there.

Bill,

it is up to you, of course, if you care or not. But observing with binoculars means to have a combined optical system consisting of a technical instrument, eyes, anatomy of the face and brain. The results you get depend on the technical instrument for approx. 30-40%. You cannot blame binoculars for the rest of the system.
Or why do you think are there no best bins?

Walter
 
jcbouget said:
Bill,

Walter is right, it’s unfair to compare binoculars having different exit pupil sizes. The Taks 22x60 give the most impressive image I have ever seen, but it’s due to the 2.7 mm exit pupil.




Walter,

Despite I have not fully understood your post, I would like to know your opinion about this kind of review :
http://www.kikkertspesialisten.no/pdf/test7x.pdf

Resolution (opplosning "skarphet") is rated :
11 for Fujinon 7x50
11- for Swarowski SLC 7x50
10+ for Opticron 7x50 marine
10 for Steiner 7x50 Amiral gold
10- for Zeiss 7x50
……
Sample variation, hair splitting with an axe, or unreliable review ?
In an old version of this review, the Zeiss Classic 10x40 was in the middle of the table, rated only 9-. So these ratings are definitely useless, but why ?

Jean-Charles


Jean-Charles,

read three reviews and get three different results. Don't get me wrong, I always read those reviews and I find it commendable, that people invest time and/or money for the work.
As long as such reviews are named "review" everything is o.K. to me, but judging optics is a matter of professionals in professional laboratories.

What we actually need are real tests. The manufacturers keep reliable tests of binoculars under lock and key. Publishing those tests would not be for much help. The individual differences from observer to observer or too big. To register and record these differences and to put them into a system is nearly impossible.

So, what can we do?


Walter
 
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elkcub said:
I would suggest that you send those precious 8x30 SLCs to Swarovski, after calling customer service for authorization and explaining they may be slightly out of alignment through continued use. When they come back just enjoy them again. Mine were reconditioned after 12 years and now I can't put them down.

Best wishes,
-elk

I would like to second this, with one exception.

Before sending them back, stop by the optics shop you spoke so kindly of and ask them to give you the current specs on collimation--magnitude and direction. I have never had any problems with Swarovski. However, you might just be surprised how caring some techs get when they know the fruits of their labors are going to be placed on a collimator when returned.

Just a thought.

Cheers,

Bill
 
I am utterly dumbfounded. What a fool I have been. On my quest for the sharpest bins all I had to do was find the ones with the smallest EP.

But...uhhh...wait a minute...my Zeiss 8x42 FLs are noticably sharper than the 8x32BAs, yet they have a larger EP!

Awww crap.
 
WJC said:
I would like to second this, with one exception.

Before sending them back, stop by the optics shop you spoke so kindly of and ask them to give you the current specs on collimation--magnitude and direction. I have never had any problems with Swarovski. However, you might just be surprised how caring some techs get when they know the fruits of their labors are going to be placed on a collimator when returned.

Just a thought.

Cheers,

Bill

Gee, I might have to do that since it was your shop that determine the collimation error. See you sometime this month.
 
just thought I'd tell you I bought a pair of Leica Trinovid 10x42 BN about two months ago - they have won my heart, my soul and my mind. Why (how would you) would you want to improve on the image these fantastic bins give? At the end of the day if people quite happy spending an extra small fortune on top of the small fortune you have to spend getting these Trinovids, well more fool them.


The Bird :gn:
 
Hmmm, an interesting thread has developed while I have been away on my penultimate summer vacation week...

Jean-Charles: You have done good work and obviously also learned a lot doing it. Your conclusions are, as far as I can judge, very sound and sane. The first thing I would like to add pertains to relating boosted results to subjective viewing experience. Namely, it makes a lot of difference which of your eyes is the dominant one. If the binocular has lots of aberrations in the barrel which serves your dominant eye, you will tend to find it poor, but if the the dominant eye receives a clean image, you can stand a fair amount of aberrations in the non-dominant eye's barrel before you begin to be seriously bothered by a perception of a poor overall image.

The second thing is that sample variation does not render meaningless the differences in transmission efficiency, stray light control, ergonomics, field of view etc., which are more design-specific than unit-specific, although I do tend to agree that an (almost) aberration-free binocular in general is more pleasant to view with (and definitely sharper) than an otherwise better and more modern but less perfect one.

Thirdly, although I have not specifically concentrated on chromatic aberration with respect to individual unit variation in binoculars, I have noticed that in telescopes there is visible (to the naked eye) difference in CA between units in the sense that some units tend to show uncharacteristically large amounts of CA. I would suspect that the same goes for binoculars, but the differences might be hard to detect.

Elk: I wish it were as simple as testing 3 (or five or any other smallish finite number) specimen to get a fair picture of sample variation within a given brand and model. Obviously, three is better than one, but how do we now that variation stays constant over time or what factors contribute to it? Is it mostly a matter of which worker worked the shift when the unit was assembled, who was doing the final product quality check, which batch of glass was used for that unit's objective lenses or what? All sorts of interesting test protocols could be devised, many of them yielding more meaningfull results than what are presently offered, but they would all fall apart at the point when the earnest reviewer would approach the manufacturer or the importer with a request along the lines of: "could we please have ten units of your XXX binocular on loan for a comparative test where we try to see how the average quality of your product compares with the average quality of brand YYY" Of course, if you could get Consumer Reports on board and have the wherewithall to actually PURCHASE randomly a large enough number of everything you wanted to test, the problem would be solved. This way you could also make sure that the manufacturers do not send you tuned-up or pre-selected cherries.

Walter: A good to excellent specimen of an older model Leica or Zeiss will most definitely give a sharper image than a mediocre to poor specimen of a most recent model sibling. Same goes for contrast. Brightness and color balance as well as freedom from flare are much more reliably design-specific, and I would be very surprised to hear that someone would find a Trinovid brighter than an Ultravid, for example.

Kimmo
 
kabsetz said:
Hmmm, an interesting thread has developed while I have been away on my penultimate summer vacation week...

Jean-Charles: You have done good work and obviously also learned a lot doing it. Your conclusions are, as far as I can judge, very sound and sane. The first thing I would like to add pertains to relating boosted results to subjective viewing experience. Namely, it makes a lot of difference which of your eyes is the dominant one. If the binocular has lots of aberrations in the barrel which serves your dominant eye, you will tend to find it poor, but if the the dominant eye receives a clean image, you can stand a fair amount of aberrations in the non-dominant eye's barrel before you begin to be seriously bothered by a perception of a poor overall image.

The second thing is that sample variation does not render meaningless the differences in transmission efficiency, stray light control, ergonomics, field of view etc., which are more design-specific than unit-specific, although I do tend to agree that an (almost) aberration-free binocular in general is more pleasant to view with (and definitely sharper) than an otherwise better and more modern but less perfect one.

Thirdly, although I have not specifically concentrated on chromatic aberration with respect to individual unit variation in binoculars, I have noticed that in telescopes there is visible (to the naked eye) difference in CA between units in the sense that some units tend to show uncharacteristically large amounts of CA. I would suspect that the same goes for binoculars, but the differences might be hard to detect.

Elk: I wish it were as simple as testing 3 (or five or any other smallish finite number) specimen to get a fair picture of sample variation within a given brand and model. Obviously, three is better than one, but how do we now that variation stays constant over time or what factors contribute to it? Is it mostly a matter of which worker worked the shift when the unit was assembled, who was doing the final product quality check, which batch of glass was used for that unit's objective lenses or what? All sorts of interesting test protocols could be devised, many of them yielding more meaningfull results than what are presently offered, but they would all fall apart at the point when the earnest reviewer would approach the manufacturer or the importer with a request along the lines of: "could we please have ten units of your XXX binocular on loan for a comparative test where we try to see how the average quality of your product compares with the average quality of brand YYY" Of course, if you could get Consumer Reports on board and have the wherewithall to actually PURCHASE randomly a large enough number of everything you wanted to test, the problem would be solved. This way you could also make sure that the manufacturers do not send you tuned-up or pre-selected cherries.

Walter: A good to excellent specimen of an older model Leica or Zeiss will most definitely give a sharper image than a mediocre to poor specimen of a most recent model sibling. Same goes for contrast. Brightness and color balance as well as freedom from flare are much more reliably design-specific, and I would be very surprised to hear that someone would find a Trinovid brighter than an Ultravid, for example.

Kimmo


???

Perhaps you should read the postings once again?!

Walter
 
Bill Atwood said:
I am utterly dumbfounded. What a fool I have been. On my quest for the sharpest bins all I had to do was find the ones with the smallest EP.

But...uhhh...wait a minute...my Zeiss 8x42 FLs are noticably sharper than the 8x32BAs, yet they have a larger EP!

Awww crap.


Sorry for demanding to much from you.

Walter
 
Wehr said:
Let us keep our feet on the ground: of course there is sample variation, but in this class it is not visible (as long as there are no defects).

A Leica Trinovid cannot outperform a Leica Ultravid in sharpness. How should it do this?

A Zeiss Classic better than a Trinovid? Nonsense. Same nonsense if somebody says a Leitz Trinovid outperform a Zeiss FL.


THE MOST ANNOYING CRITISISM DURING A DISCUSSION IS DONE BY MENTIONING FACTS.


Walter


I just read your message again, as you suggested in your last post. It is, of course, possible that I have missed some subtle sarcasm on your part, but if not, I still beg to differ on the issue. I know that high-end manufacturers would very much like to have us believe that "in this class" sample variation is not visible, but to my eyes and the eyes of many, many birders I know, it is visible.

Kimmo
 
kabsetz said:
Hmmm, an interesting thread has developed while I have been away on my penultimate summer vacation week...

Jean-Charles: You have done good work and obviously also learned a lot doing it. Your conclusions are, as far as I can judge, very sound and sane. The first thing I would like to add pertains to relating boosted results to subjective viewing experience. Namely, it makes a lot of difference which of your eyes is the dominant one. If the binocular has lots of aberrations in the barrel which serves your dominant eye, you will tend to find it poor, but if the the dominant eye receives a clean image, you can stand a fair amount of aberrations in the non-dominant eye's barrel before you begin to be seriously bothered by a perception of a poor overall image.
Kimmo,

Yes I have learned a lot, and it goes on. ;)

Your remark suggests that a given unit may be good for one user, and poor for another, even if they have the same eyesight. Fascinating.

I have tried something to verify this fact.
My dominant eye is the right one. My binocular “Meade sample A” is optically poor in the left barrel, and perfect in the right barrel. I supposed that this property would explain why this binocular gives a pleasant image to me, despite the poor left barrel. So I have tried to look through the binocular upside down : the left barrel with my right eye, and the right barrel with my left eye. I was expecting to see a poor image, but in fact, it was the opposite : the binocular seems sharper than in the normal position. It was confirmed by looking at stars. So for me, it doesn’t work at all, and sharpness seems more related to the aberrations in my eyes. My left eye is indeed very slightly inferior to my right eye, and I suppose that if the left barrel is fair, the wavefront aberrations of the eye and the binoculars add up, and produce a visible deacrease in sharpness. My Zeiss FL before repairing had its poorest barrel in the left side too.
This is probably an illustration of how our eyes interact with binoculars, with very different results according to the users.

Jean-Charles
 
kabsetz said:
...
Elk: I wish it were as simple as testing 3 (or five or any other smallish finite number) specimen to get a fair picture of sample variation within a given brand and model. Obviously, three is better than one, but how do we now that variation stays constant over time or what factors contribute to it? Is it mostly a matter of which worker worked the shift when the unit was assembled, who was doing the final product quality check, which batch of glass was used for that unit's objective lenses or what? All sorts of interesting test protocols could be devised, many of them yielding more meaningfull results than what are presently offered, but they would all fall apart at the point when the earnest reviewer would approach the manufacturer or the importer with a request along the lines of: "could we please have ten units of your XXX binocular on loan for a comparative test where we try to see how the average quality of your product compares with the average quality of brand YYY" Of course, if you could get Consumer Reports on board and have the wherewithall to actually PURCHASE randomly a large enough number of everything you wanted to test, the problem would be solved. This way you could also make sure that the manufacturers do not send you tuned-up or pre-selected cherries.
...

Hi Kimmo,

I was out of town for two days or might have responded sooner.

Unfortunately, every issue you mentioned concerning specimen selection or manufacturer bias applies to samples of size N=1 as well as N>1. My interpretation of what you said, therefore, is that once variability is estimated, i.e., with N>1, one would inevitably get drawn into speculating about what caused it. Possibly so. However, a consumer's primary concern should be whether an observed difference in average performance is explained by a true difference in the means of the product distributions, or by random factors related to its variability. From that perspective there is simply no way to avoid measuring within-sample variability. Of course, if that were done the subsequent analysis and interpretation would also become more complex, but, IMO, potentially a great deal more meaningful.

When I bring up this issue it is not really with any expectation that methods currently in use will change, but to point out to those interested that strong conclusions can not be made in the presence of unknown variability. I hope these comments are not taken as a recrimination, as that is certainly not intended. It's just a technical opinion about the limitations of the techniques in use. Everything has limitations.

-elk
 
jcbouget said:
My dominant eye is the right one. My binocular “Meade sample A” is optically poor in the left barrel, and perfect in the right barrel. I supposed that this property would explain why this binocular gives a pleasant image to me, despite the poor left barrel. So I have tried to look through the binocular upside down : the left barrel with my right eye, and the right barrel with my left eye. I was expecting to see a poor image, but in fact, it was the opposite : the binocular seems sharper than in the normal position. It was confirmed by looking at stars. So for me, it doesn’t work at all, and sharpness seems more related to the aberrations in my eyes. My left eye is indeed very slightly inferior to my right eye, and I suppose that if the left barrel is fair, the wavefront aberrations of the eye and the binoculars add up, and produce a visible deacrease in sharpness. My Zeiss FL before repairing had its poorest barrel in the left side too.
This is probably an illustration of how our eyes interact with binoculars, with very different results according to the users.

I'll throw a little confusion into this. I am left eye dominant. My right eye is more sensitive to out of focus/diopter settings than my left. If my left is focusing a little soft, that's okay, if my right is, it drives me batty.

I would rather have a softer or more distorted image in my left eye than my right. I was fascinated about this earlier, and have a pair of porros at the shop I work where the left side is a little foggy and the right is relatively clear. These bins really bug me, but when I flip them around, I absolutely go nuts, even though I am completely left eye dominate...

lol
 
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