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Grousemore
Senior Member
Draco said:
As you well know, your comment about the 'special olympics'
Surely you don't need to ask why?
Grousemore
Senior Member
Draco said:
I think you'll be alright as your inappropriate comments were edited out... one of the benefits of this being a properly moderated forum.
Dingoblu
Well-known member
<<And this further demonstrates a lack of understanding on your part - this thread directly questioned the methods of 'cull', i.e. the pleasure some PM forum members were taking in pulling legs off birds, electricuting, etc. >>>
Yeah I thought this thread was about the above mentioned, until the anti-gun contingent turned it around about gun toting Americans... give it a break. Is it really glee that gets you bent, or is it the guns in general?
People hate what they fear, and they fear what they don't understand. Just remember that a person with rights is a citizen, those without are a subject.
Seems that those of us here that are Americans are definately the minority of the site. I don't come here often as no one seems to care about our sightings, stories or pics... until someone doesnt approve of something. Which is too bad, I like to see the different species native to places I will probably never go.
Oh and about the fox-hunting thing that was brought up... if it had not been outlawed as INHUMANE would you all still be out there doing it? I ride horses and think it would be an incredible ride, but just would not have the stomach for it. Guess I'm an animal lover at heart and not just a bird lover.
Yeah I thought this thread was about the above mentioned, until the anti-gun contingent turned it around about gun toting Americans... give it a break. Is it really glee that gets you bent, or is it the guns in general?
People hate what they fear, and they fear what they don't understand. Just remember that a person with rights is a citizen, those without are a subject.
Seems that those of us here that are Americans are definately the minority of the site. I don't come here often as no one seems to care about our sightings, stories or pics... until someone doesnt approve of something. Which is too bad, I like to see the different species native to places I will probably never go.
Oh and about the fox-hunting thing that was brought up... if it had not been outlawed as INHUMANE would you all still be out there doing it? I ride horses and think it would be an incredible ride, but just would not have the stomach for it. Guess I'm an animal lover at heart and not just a bird lover.
snowyowl
Well-known member
Dingoblu said:
I must have missed the anti-gun stuff that you are referring to. I've been following this thread since the beginning and haven't seen any anti-American material just people challenging the cruelty that seems to be advocated by some of the PM people. Would you mind giving specific references so that I can read the material? Oh, and just for the record, I've got a gun cabinet that is full and I understand guns and hunting very well.
As to your comment about noboby caring about sightings, stories and pics, I don't understand that at all. We have lots threads devoted almost entirely to North American material and we have a lot of North Americans contributing to BF everyday.
There is plenty of anti gun/American stuff. I didn’t make it to page three before I found these:
The only reply to their continued Fox hunting, which is against the law, was that they don’t do it because it is illegal. Not because it was cruel. When I provided proof that the running of dogs to chase down a tear a Fox to pieces while it is still living continues, it was ignored. Yet, we are the cruel ones - PLEASE!
These people see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe. I’ve stated repeatedly that they cannot find a single document that says the lethal control of S&S in the U.S. is wrong. They don’t reply.
My posts get edited for the slightest discrepancy, yet their moderators can use profanity.
I was accused of trying to start a Brits vs. American agenda. Look at those quotes that were posted before I found this thread.
Still, I stay and try to help them to understand why we do what we do and that every single group has some bad apples. I’m sure that this board does. I’m sure that folks have been banned from this board because they were bad apples. We cannot police all of the people all of the time and we don’t want to.
If someone is proud of helping our native cavity nesting birds and they want to tell others how to help they have the right to do so here. I encourage every birder that I meet to help control S&S. Many birders outside of the Purple Martin groups practice S&S control here. I’ve provided references to those, as well.
I let this stuff go until these things were brought up. I didn’t want to stray from the real issue here, which is S&S control in the U.S. We have covered this ad nauseam. It is really time to move on.
Mark
The only reply to their continued Fox hunting, which is against the law, was that they don’t do it because it is illegal. Not because it was cruel. When I provided proof that the running of dogs to chase down a tear a Fox to pieces while it is still living continues, it was ignored. Yet, we are the cruel ones - PLEASE!
These people see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe. I’ve stated repeatedly that they cannot find a single document that says the lethal control of S&S in the U.S. is wrong. They don’t reply.
My posts get edited for the slightest discrepancy, yet their moderators can use profanity.
I was accused of trying to start a Brits vs. American agenda. Look at those quotes that were posted before I found this thread.
Still, I stay and try to help them to understand why we do what we do and that every single group has some bad apples. I’m sure that this board does. I’m sure that folks have been banned from this board because they were bad apples. We cannot police all of the people all of the time and we don’t want to.
If someone is proud of helping our native cavity nesting birds and they want to tell others how to help they have the right to do so here. I encourage every birder that I meet to help control S&S. Many birders outside of the Purple Martin groups practice S&S control here. I’ve provided references to those, as well.
I let this stuff go until these things were brought up. I didn’t want to stray from the real issue here, which is S&S control in the U.S. We have covered this ad nauseam. It is really time to move on.
Mark
Draco, this is EXACTLY what you did !!!! it was you who has at at EVERY oppurtunity tried to deflect the issue onto Foxhunting or anything else you can!
This whole thread started out pointing out that some members on your board and another board were talking openly about torturing birds. You have been the one that has turned and twisted at every point defending there actions, when indeed the thread gathered momentum and others members voiced
there disgust at this, you immediatly started this utter hogwash on every other subject to deflect the heat from your barbaric practises. You as I said earlier are a disgrace to the birding world and as far as I am concerned the sooner you and your ilk realise the error of your ways the better. This has nothing to do with US vs UK and you know it as do most of our members.
Draco said:
Boy oh boy, are you strung up or what?
Fox hunting was thrown in by you as an irrelevant red herring - this thread, as has been said several times before, was a thread questioning the actions of so-called bird-lovers and their delight in their chosen method of 'controlling' a bird species. You seek to compare the actions of fox-hunters (or farmers or whatever other straw you can grasp) with 'birders'. Get real, there are actions carried out by various groups in Europe (including fox-hunting) and actions carried out by various groups elsewhere in the world that I might not agree with, but find ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE (other than the PM forum) where you can find a conservation-minded group that allows members to gloat over the torture of birds. If you can, I will happily 'attack' that too (attack being your terminology for our expressions of concern) for it is my belief that such an organisation is not a genuine organisation concerned with bird welfare or conservation (and clearly a belief of many, including plenty on your side of the pond).
As for your second paragraph "these people see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe", we saw the words of those who post on the PM forum, what exactly would you like us to believe?
And you have stated repeatedly that people cannot find a single document that says the lethal control of Starlings and Sparrows in the U.S. is wrong? Well, how big of you! Just find me one document that advocates pulling off legs and 'zapping their little arses' and other such methods of control.
As a matter of point, this is not an American-non-American issue - if this was being conducted in the UK, do you think we would be any less vocal in our opposition?
I am totally sure there are many good genuine birders out there involved in Purple Martin conservation, but the nature of that forum is simply a slur on their good character ...and I think you are hardly doing them any favours too!
Edit: hadn't seen the thread by Steve when posting this, but not a surprise to see we say near the same. Wake up Draco, see what you want to see, believe what you want to believe?
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Terry O'Nolley
Cow-headed Jaybird
Draco said:
All I said was:
Terry O'Nolley said:
Which of these statements triggered your knee-jerk response?
Do you actually think Jimbo Jones with his BB gun is significantly altering the balance of power? If so, state it! If not, why use something you agree with against me?
Further, once you display your common sense by agreeing that plinking sparrows with a BB gun does nothing to lower their numbers as a species (note that I am not against culling S&S) then you must ask yourself what the real motivation is for blowing bloody holes in the heads of small birds. I believe it is because they enjoy killing. Surely you aren't suggesting a teary-eyed farmer kissing his wife goodbye as he is forced to go Old Yeller on a sparrow happens very often.......
So, you may call me a closet judge of character, but I like to think that I am merely demonstrating a keen sense for the obvious.
Draco said:
Your implication that I am stupid serves only to highlight your own rather spectacular lack of judgement.
alcedo.atthis
Well-known member
Mark,
loved the 2 photo's that you posted. I only wish that one of my ponds were that large. I would have thought that the "gourds" (correct me if I am wrong) on the frames would may have been slightly further apart, but is the positioning related to the colony behaviour of the species.
Can I take it that there is a greater success in areas bordering water, where insect life is more prevalent. If so, have you, or any other Purple Martin groups asked for assistance from entomologists.
We here in the U.K. are now wondering what will happen to some of our migratory insectivorous species, as (Tim’s favourite subject) global warming, affects the timing of the hatching of larvae and pupae.
Concern is growing as to the mistiming of return of migratory species, considering the length of time for nest building, in conjunction with brooding time, in relation to the available insects they require to feed the broods produced.
Some professionals are predicting that if insectivorous migratory species are to survive, then they may have to completely change the timing of migration so as to have enough food available to produce successful broods.
Do you know if this may be happening with you, re- earlier hatching of insects post winter, and reduced availability for hatched nestlings.
Regards
Malky
loved the 2 photo's that you posted. I only wish that one of my ponds were that large. I would have thought that the "gourds" (correct me if I am wrong) on the frames would may have been slightly further apart, but is the positioning related to the colony behaviour of the species.
Can I take it that there is a greater success in areas bordering water, where insect life is more prevalent. If so, have you, or any other Purple Martin groups asked for assistance from entomologists.
We here in the U.K. are now wondering what will happen to some of our migratory insectivorous species, as (Tim’s favourite subject) global warming, affects the timing of the hatching of larvae and pupae.
Concern is growing as to the mistiming of return of migratory species, considering the length of time for nest building, in conjunction with brooding time, in relation to the available insects they require to feed the broods produced.
Some professionals are predicting that if insectivorous migratory species are to survive, then they may have to completely change the timing of migration so as to have enough food available to produce successful broods.
Do you know if this may be happening with you, re- earlier hatching of insects post winter, and reduced availability for hatched nestlings.
Regards
Malky
pduxon
Quacked up Member
couldn't give a stuff a about the guns. If someone wants to shoot a bird and eat it no problem by me or if its for sensible control again.... Seems a bit sad though to electrocute sparrowsDingoblu said:
Dingoblu said:
and your point??
Dingoblu said:
oh puhlease do me a favour - I and many other Brits/Euros Aussies enjoy reading about the adventures of our American friends.
Vick2903
Well-known member
Err I thought this was a multinational site!
As for killing Animals - there are ways and means to cull humanely - but to kill for sport is a huge no no,
As for fox hunting to enjoy the ride (on the horse) just make a scent trail for the hounds to chase - the fox is not needed - as for pickled finches and such now there is a big no no - instead of griping about these things and bickering about who drinks tea or coffee out of bowler hats or stetsons who cares - I thought the point of this was about the birds that are being barbarically killed because of another breed of bird and what can be done about it! o
As for killing Animals - there are ways and means to cull humanely - but to kill for sport is a huge no no,
As for fox hunting to enjoy the ride (on the horse) just make a scent trail for the hounds to chase - the fox is not needed - as for pickled finches and such now there is a big no no - instead of griping about these things and bickering about who drinks tea or coffee out of bowler hats or stetsons who cares - I thought the point of this was about the birds that are being barbarically killed because of another breed of bird and what can be done about it! o
Dingoblu said:
Dingoblu said:
Whose fault is that? No one is discriminating against them on this site. I think there are at least 3, maybe more moderators that are American. I have it on good authority that a lot more advertising in US magazines is imminent. No one is stopping Americans joining this site, unless they are advocating the torture of unwanted species.
Dingoblu said:
To say that nobody cares about US sightings or stories and pictures is total crap.
Dingoblu said:
Cruelty and torture of animals is abhorrent in any country and to see it glorified on the Purple Martin website is bound to get people enraged. There is no anti-American agenda here and if you think that you're paranoid.
Oh Steve, you are just SO wrong that I can’t let this one slip. You find me one case from my Website to back up your accusations and I will apologize. Until then I consider you a liar and a disgrace to this board. You and your ilk have spouted more hogwash than I could come up with. I relied on facts and backed them up with the references that were requested. It was only until the hogwash started that I figured that’s all you understood, so I joined in. Go back and look it up again. Tell me that the quotes I found on pages one and two are not anti gun/U.S. Those were posted before I got involved in this. One that I didn’t quote even brings up the issue of how much America contributes to pollution. Where does that fit in this and how anti American is that? I use facts that are in some way related to this debate. Pollution is another thread. The torturous killing of Fox practiced in your country is worse than anything that we have been accused of. Torture of birds - not OK. Torture of Fox - OK. Torture is torture. They are related. Unless you have a lung disease let’s leave pollution out of it, OK?
Jos, you want other organizations to attack? Very good! Go down my list, starting with the Audubon Society. Someone mentioned having them “teach” us. On what, how to load and shoot faster? They want us to kill S&S, so does our federal and state governments, so does everyone except the people on this forum or I would have been flooded by now with documentation that killing S&S in North America is wrong! Find those organizations that you speak of and give me the documentation! I have asked this from the start. You can’t do it. You CANNOT FIND ONE! I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. We ARE proud of protecting our native birds. If we want to share how many S&S we killed today, or the best way to trap them we are doing a service to our native birds. Want some Zebra Mussels to toss into some of your lakes?
I have also stated over and over that not one of our organizations believes in torture, or condones it. I have said time and again that there are bad apples in every bunch. It is this constant repetition that causes me to state that you only see and believe what you want to.
Are you active in stopping the killing of the Ruddy Duck in your country? You should be from the comments that you have made.
I LOVE this:
Terry, I know for a fact that the culling of S&S does make a difference. I see it in my yard. I see it at active Martin colonies. I hear about it almost every day. To say that culling S&S does nothing is a spit in the face of every U.S. birding organization, federal and local government and university studies. The fact that you believe this is why I posted that you just don’t understand yet. The fact that you THINK that we enjoy this is a spit in the face of every one of us. Read my links and get back with me. Maybe then you will realize that I am right and YOU are wrong. The birds we kill make a difference. We know that we are helping our native birds. There is proof. Do you think for a single minute that the Audubon Society and Cornell University’s Department of Natural Resource Ornithology division would tell us to do this if it didn’t help?
Malky,
Phew! Thanks, I was almost swamped there! Nice breath of fresh air!
Yes!!! Everything that you mention are things that we are looking at. Insects seem to be lower in numbers than they once were. In northern states and provinces four cold springs in a row have taken a toll. We lost tens of thousands of Martins to cold springs. With no insects flying entire colonies were wiped out. Three years ago it was especially bad. We have turned to “emergency feeding” as a new way to help the Purple Martin. Once a bird that relied on only flying insects as a source of food we started purchasing Crickets and freezing them. When a cold snap hits and daytime temps are below 50 degrees F. Some landlords started “flinging Crickets” (after they thawed, of course). The birds learned and then would take them from a tray. We added Mealworms to the menu and then, take a DEEP breath, scrambled eggs. We are still learning, but this is all new and we have knowledgeable, devoted landlords who are learning and teaching others.
You are correct, too, those are plastic gourds. I am glad that you liked the composite shot. The closer the better for colony nesting birds! Our aluminum housing has compartments just inches from others. I’ll post a shot of my housing if you would like to see it.
I don’t know of a single entomologist that is involved in any Purple Martin project. GREAT idea!!! Thanks!
Mothman, I am still being accused of supporting the torture of birds as of this post. I HAVE to keep beating the fact that I do not into the heads of those who accuse me of supporting this. It just takes longer for some people to learn than others. I will be patient, yet persistent. I cannot allow these lies and false accusations to follow me. Please hang in there until everyone figures this out.
Ah, the rest is not directed toward me. Until tomorrow and page six!
Mark
Jos, you want other organizations to attack? Very good! Go down my list, starting with the Audubon Society. Someone mentioned having them “teach” us. On what, how to load and shoot faster? They want us to kill S&S, so does our federal and state governments, so does everyone except the people on this forum or I would have been flooded by now with documentation that killing S&S in North America is wrong! Find those organizations that you speak of and give me the documentation! I have asked this from the start. You can’t do it. You CANNOT FIND ONE! I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. We ARE proud of protecting our native birds. If we want to share how many S&S we killed today, or the best way to trap them we are doing a service to our native birds. Want some Zebra Mussels to toss into some of your lakes?
I have also stated over and over that not one of our organizations believes in torture, or condones it. I have said time and again that there are bad apples in every bunch. It is this constant repetition that causes me to state that you only see and believe what you want to.
Are you active in stopping the killing of the Ruddy Duck in your country? You should be from the comments that you have made.
I LOVE this:
Really? How “totally sure” are you, Jos? I don’t know of a single “genuine birder” (thinking by that you mean someone who goes into the field with binoculars. . .) that has an active Martin colony. Most are like me, involved in some birding projects, maybe a Bluebird trail, maybe Peregrines. Most couldn’t tell you if what they just saw was a Flicker or a Red Bellied Woodpecker. I can do that, but I don’t have an active Martin colony. What most know is what S&S, Purple Martins and Tree Swallows look like. Toss in the American Robin, maybe Bluebird. Those are easy to do a field ID on.
Terry, I know for a fact that the culling of S&S does make a difference. I see it in my yard. I see it at active Martin colonies. I hear about it almost every day. To say that culling S&S does nothing is a spit in the face of every U.S. birding organization, federal and local government and university studies. The fact that you believe this is why I posted that you just don’t understand yet. The fact that you THINK that we enjoy this is a spit in the face of every one of us. Read my links and get back with me. Maybe then you will realize that I am right and YOU are wrong. The birds we kill make a difference. We know that we are helping our native birds. There is proof. Do you think for a single minute that the Audubon Society and Cornell University’s Department of Natural Resource Ornithology division would tell us to do this if it didn’t help?
Malky,
Phew! Thanks, I was almost swamped there! Nice breath of fresh air!
Yes!!! Everything that you mention are things that we are looking at. Insects seem to be lower in numbers than they once were. In northern states and provinces four cold springs in a row have taken a toll. We lost tens of thousands of Martins to cold springs. With no insects flying entire colonies were wiped out. Three years ago it was especially bad. We have turned to “emergency feeding” as a new way to help the Purple Martin. Once a bird that relied on only flying insects as a source of food we started purchasing Crickets and freezing them. When a cold snap hits and daytime temps are below 50 degrees F. Some landlords started “flinging Crickets” (after they thawed, of course). The birds learned and then would take them from a tray. We added Mealworms to the menu and then, take a DEEP breath, scrambled eggs. We are still learning, but this is all new and we have knowledgeable, devoted landlords who are learning and teaching others.
You are correct, too, those are plastic gourds. I am glad that you liked the composite shot. The closer the better for colony nesting birds! Our aluminum housing has compartments just inches from others. I’ll post a shot of my housing if you would like to see it.
I don’t know of a single entomologist that is involved in any Purple Martin project. GREAT idea!!! Thanks!
Mothman, I am still being accused of supporting the torture of birds as of this post. I HAVE to keep beating the fact that I do not into the heads of those who accuse me of supporting this. It just takes longer for some people to learn than others. I will be patient, yet persistent. I cannot allow these lies and false accusations to follow me. Please hang in there until everyone figures this out.
Ah, the rest is not directed toward me. Until tomorrow and page six!
Mark
it makes instructive reading - here's an arguably even more looney "conservation" story http://www.bestofbbml.audubon-omaha.org/hospactive5.htm (HOSP = house sparrow).
As a biologist this pseudoscientific anthropomorphic gibberish is offensive and its consequences ecologically unpredictable. What is going on here is that there is a fad in the eastern USA over the last few years to have bluebirds and purple martins nesting in your garden (using respectively nesting boxes and hollowed-out gourds). This is driven by the fact that both species are having their nesting sites displaced by starlings and house sparrows - though, with populations in the 100,00 at least, neither is under any kind of real conservation threat. So the good folks invest in expensive birdseed, gourds, nest boxes, feeders and doubtless electric bird baths (along with fully-furnished bird condos with ensuite jacuzzi). The next step (in the race with the joneses) is to attract the martins and bluebirds. This may involve hiring a consultant and spending more $$$ (this is really true). Then those pesky aliens arrive and take over the nest - so they shoot them thus re-establishing all things to their rightful place - right? Wrong. The reason why the sparrows come is because house sparrows go everywhere humans do. They are not maliciously breaking bluebird eggs - they are simply following the behaviour that they have evolved over 1000s of years. They follow humans, they follow urban sprawl. Meanwhile the bluebirds are used to nesting in holes in trees - often disused woodpecker holes - however the urban sprawl has resulted in less trees thus forcing the hapless birds into peoples garden nest boxes. So if you want to reduce the sparrow problem all you need to do is reduce the urban sprawl problem - and put those nest boxes far away from human habitation - that way the sparrows will leave them alone.
Re the martins and the gourds, that is another tale of human interference, though more interesting...
Finally, both species are fascinating in their own way - indeed I believe that flocking starlings is one of the seven wonders of the natural world...
So to answer the question - no they are not birders, they are landscape gardeners!
As a biologist this pseudoscientific anthropomorphic gibberish is offensive and its consequences ecologically unpredictable. What is going on here is that there is a fad in the eastern USA over the last few years to have bluebirds and purple martins nesting in your garden (using respectively nesting boxes and hollowed-out gourds). This is driven by the fact that both species are having their nesting sites displaced by starlings and house sparrows - though, with populations in the 100,00 at least, neither is under any kind of real conservation threat. So the good folks invest in expensive birdseed, gourds, nest boxes, feeders and doubtless electric bird baths (along with fully-furnished bird condos with ensuite jacuzzi). The next step (in the race with the joneses) is to attract the martins and bluebirds. This may involve hiring a consultant and spending more $$$ (this is really true). Then those pesky aliens arrive and take over the nest - so they shoot them thus re-establishing all things to their rightful place - right? Wrong. The reason why the sparrows come is because house sparrows go everywhere humans do. They are not maliciously breaking bluebird eggs - they are simply following the behaviour that they have evolved over 1000s of years. They follow humans, they follow urban sprawl. Meanwhile the bluebirds are used to nesting in holes in trees - often disused woodpecker holes - however the urban sprawl has resulted in less trees thus forcing the hapless birds into peoples garden nest boxes. So if you want to reduce the sparrow problem all you need to do is reduce the urban sprawl problem - and put those nest boxes far away from human habitation - that way the sparrows will leave them alone.
Re the martins and the gourds, that is another tale of human interference, though more interesting...
Finally, both species are fascinating in their own way - indeed I believe that flocking starlings is one of the seven wonders of the natural world...
So to answer the question - no they are not birders, they are landscape gardeners!
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Draco said:
As always, way off the mark, perhaps you could at least learn to read! I asked to to provide "ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE (other than the PM forum) where you can find a conservation-minded group that allows members to gloat over the torture of birds". Trying to tell me that the Audubon Society or federal and state governments fall into this category?
It has been said many times that the concern was not so much over a cull per se, but the pleasure expressed in torture.
And as for your second point, if I am wrong in my belief that there are many good genuine birders out there involved in Purple Martin conservation, then all I can say is it's more the pity - I had hoped some were a little more balanced than you. However, I think slightly better of your fellow countryfolk and the fact you 'don’t know of a single genuine birder' involved in PM makes me think they prefer the company of other genuine birders.
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