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Draco said:
Terry, I know for a fact that the culling of S&S does make a difference. I see it in my yard. I see it at active Martin colonies. I hear about it almost every day. To say that culling S&S does nothing is a spit in the face of every U.S. birding organization, federal and local government and university studies.

A rather nice attempt to elicit the fabled straw man. But I supported culling - when carried out by a knowledgable government organization as part of a comprehensive plan. A dude with a BB gun on his back porch just giggling at the chance to run out and kill a sparrow is something different altogether and if you don't think that a lot of people wear the false mask of environmental culling just to hide their blood lust then it is you that aren't a very good judge of people. Or maybe you are just childlishly naive.
 
As a biologist this pseudoscientific anthropomorphic gibgerish is offensive and its consequences ecologically unpredictable. What is going on here is that there is a fad in the eastern USA over the last few years to have bluebirds and purple martins nesting in your garden (using respectively nesting obxes and hollowed-out gourds).

As a biologist you must be too busy to have learned much about Bluebirds and Purple Martins. What is “going on here” has been going on here before the white man arrived in North America – not quite a new fad that has delveloped over the past few years. Here you go:
http://www.purplemartin.org/update/Indigenous.html

http://www.arts.state.al.us/actc/articles/gourd.htm

http://www.agnr.umd.edu/MCE/Publications/PDFs/FS792.pdf

You have lost credibility in your first two sentences. I suggest further study.

This is driven by the fact that both species are having their nesting sites displaced by starlings and house sparrows - though, with populations in the 100,00 at least, neither is under any kind of real conservation threat.

What number were you trying to type? They are not under threat because we provide housing for them. The eastern Purple Martin is totally dependant upon man for housing. They do not nest in natural cavities anywhere. The western species still nests in some natural housing. Here is more about the problems that Eastern Bluebirds faced for centuries. Please note that providing housing for these birds for more than 100 years has been going on to preserve this species. No fad here either:

http://www.sialis.org/history.htm

So the good folks invest in expensive birdseed, gourds, nest boxes, feeders and doubtless electric bird baths (along with fully-furnished bird condos with ensuite jaccussi). The next step (in the race with the joneses) is to attract the martins and bluebirds. This may involve hiring a consultant and spending more $$$ (this is really true).

Since Purple Martins and Bluebirds do not eat seeds why do you mention seed and feeders, or didn’t you know this either? Please provide a source for your “really true” claim or it goes in the trash with your first two sentences.

Then those pesky aliens arrive and take over the nest - so they shoot them thus reestablishing all things to their rightful place - right? wrong. The reason why thge sparrows come is because house sparows go verywhere humand do. They are not maliciously breaking bluebird eggs - they are sim;lly followign the behavior that they have eveoved over 1000s of years. Tehy follow humans, they follow urban sprawl.

Man, I’m glad that you chose biology and not teaching spelling and grammar! Yes they follow us and we wish that they wouldn’t. Want to know more about the HOSP? Go here:

http://www.sialis.org/hosphistory.htm

I liked some of the comments:
• By 1887, some states had already initiated efforts to eradicate HOSPs. The Agriculture Library (1912) contains a chapter entitled How to Destroy English Sparrows. States such as Illinois (1891-1895) and Michigan (1887-1895) established bounty programs. According to Keith Kridler, since the bounty on "English" Sparrows was only a few cents per bird in many states, young children killed these birds to earn money for "hard candy." The children quickly learned to wait for the eggs to hatch and thus quadruple their bounty. County clerks often felt sorry for these children, and paid out the bounty on any species of sparrow.
• In 1903, W.L. Dawson wrote "Without question the most deplorable event in the history of American ornithology was the introduction of the English Sparrow." (The Birds of Ohio, 1903)
• In 1904, Chester A. Reed wrote "These birds, which were imported from Europe, have increased so rapidly that they have overrun the cities and villages of the country and are doing inestimable damage both by driving out the native insect eating birds and by their own destructiveness. They nest in all sorts of places but preferably behind blinds, where their unsightly masses of straw protrude from between the slats, and their droppings besmirch the buildings below; they breed at all seasons of the year, eggs having often been found in January, with several feet of snow on the ground and the mercury below zero." (North American Birds Eggs)
• In 1912 "The English Sparrow As a Pest" Farmers Bulletin #493, by USDA noted they eat more than ½ their own weigh in grain or other food a day. It contained recipe for house sparrows.
So, we have a bit of HOSP hating history here, too. I see that you didn’t mention that this was also a new “fad”. I can’t link to this, so I have to print it. I looked up some Michigan laws which are still on the books, but I don’t think that they will still pay a bounty on the things:

433.271 English sparrows; lawful to kill.

Sec. 1.

That it shall be lawful to kill the birds commonly called “English sparrows.”

History: 1885, Act 4, Imd. Eff. Feb. 17, 1885 ;-- How. 2259a ;-- CL 1897, 5585 ;-- CL 1915, 7258 ;-- CL 1929, 9026 ;-- CL 1948, 433.271

STARLINGS AND CROWS (EXCERPT)
Act 152 of 1941- Eff. Jan. 10, 1942 (replaced PA 57 of 1933, which replaced PA 226 of 1907, which replaced PA 29 of 1887 (which only included current sec. 1))


433.301 Starlings and crows; bounty for killing; resolution of board of supervisors.

Every person being an inhabitant of this state, who shall kill a starling or a crow in any organized township, village or city in this state shall be entitled to receive a bounty of 3 cents for each starling thus killed, and 10 cents for each crow thus killed, to be allowed and paid in the manner hereinafter provided: Provided, That this law shall not be obligatory on any county unless the board of supervisors at the October session shall adopt a resolution to that effect, either as to starlings or as to crows or both, and then only to the amount appropriated for such purpose by said board, and shall not be effective in any city or village located in any such county in case the governing body thereof shall adopt a resolution to that effect.

433.302 Starlings and crows; delivery to local clerk; certificate.

Every person applying for such bounty shall take such starlings, in lots of not less than 50, and crows in lots of 10 or more, to the clerk of the township, village or city within which such starlings or crows shall have been killed, in a state of good preservation, and if satisfied with the correctness of such claim, shall issue a certificate stating the amount of bounty to which such applicant is entitled and deliver the same to such applicant, and shall destroy such starlings and crows by burning or other effective method.

433.303 Certificate; presentation to county clerk; warrant, payment.

Such certificate may be presented by the claimant or his agent to the county clerk of the county in which such starlings or crows have been killed, who shall thereupon draw a warrant for the amount on the treasurer of said county, and said treasurer shall, upon presentation of said warrant, pay the same from the general or contingent fund of said county.

433.304 Violations of act; penalty.

Any person who collects or attempts to collect any bounty under the provisions of this act, on any bird other than starlings or crows, or who collects or attempts to collect such bounty upon any starlings or crows not killed in the county in which such collection or attempt to so collect is made, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor, and on conviction thereof shall be punished by a fine of not less than $1.00 nor more than $10.00 or by imprisonment in the county jail not more than 10 days, or by both such fine and imprisonment in the discretion of the court.

Meanwhile the bluebirds are used to nesting in holes in trees - often disused woodpecker holes - however the urban sprawl has resulted in less trees thus forcing the hapless birds int peoples garden nest boxes. So if you want to reduce the sparrow problem all you need to do is reduce the urban sprawl problem - and put those nest boxes far away from human habitation - that way the sparrows will leave them alone.

We would prefer to get rid of the disease than treat the symptoms, but thanks anyway.

Re the martins and the gourds, that is another tale of human interference, though more interesting...

Ya, those pesky Indians should never have started this 100s of years ago.

Finally, both species are fascinating in their own way - indeed i believe that flocking starlings is one of the seven wonders of the natural world...

And I believe that you should have kept your “flocking” Starlings.

So to answer the question - no they are not birders, they are landscape gardeners!

To that I say you are a biologist who doesn’t know anything about birds and shouldn’t comment on things that you know nothing about.

Jos, I have repeatedly said that we don’t allow discussions on the torture of birds. The posts were removed as proof of that. I can accuse you of not reading, as well.

You don’t live here and you don’t understand Martin landlords. While you are out with your spotting scope Purple Martin landlords are home enjoying the one bird that they don’t have to chase after. Different strokes for different folks.

Terry, if I did not trap and shoot S&S my Martin housing would be FULL of S&S right now. It is not and that is because I trap and shoot. Choose to believe otherwise if it pleases you.

Mark
 
Draco I'm not a native speaker of the English language but I think you have misunderstood this thread.

It's not about the reasons of the cull it's how it's done.No one here,if I have read and undestood correctly, is here to argue about the reasons of the cull,like you,they and I,understand that allien species are damaging to the natives (that's why they cull Ruddy Ducks in Britain,that's why they cull Starlings and H.Sparrows in Australia and N.America.).It's the way they dislike(I repeat not the reasons).No logical and civilized human is going to like creatures have themselves tortured to death for any reason.However any logical and civilized human will want an alien speciew removed humanly.Oh and no civilzed or logical human is going to gloat about killing birds(or any other creature for the matter) that is plain blood lust.

Yours,

Dimitris.
 
Thanks for your opinions, Dimitris. You seem to do very well with the English language!

I am still being accused of supporting the torture of animals and I don't know how many times that I have said that's not true. Some people are proud that they have killed a number of non-native birds and do boast about it. I don't do it, but I don't kill all that many, either. There is nothing that will stop some people from gloating about it and sometimes it is done to help others increase the number of non-native birds that they kill. A new type of trap or a new shooting tactic is often the reason for this. Some are just proud that they are helping our native birds. Right or wrong I can't stop it.

Mark
 
Jos Stratford said:
Boy oh boy, are you strung up or what?

Fox hunting was thrown in by you as an irrelevant red herring - this thread, as has been said several times before, was a thread questioning the actions of so-called bird-lovers and their delight in their chosen method of 'controlling' a bird species. You seek to compare the actions of fox-hunters (or farmers or whatever other straw you can grasp) with 'birders'. Get real, there are actions carried out by various groups in Europe (including fox-hunting) and actions carried out by various groups elsewhere in the world that I might not agree with, but find ONE SINGLE EXAMPLE (other than the PM forum) where you can find a conservation-minded group that allows members to gloat over the torture of birds. If you can, I will happily 'attack' that too (attack being your terminology for our expressions of concern) for it is my belief that such an organisation is not a genuine organisation concerned with bird welfare or conservation (and clearly a belief of many, including plenty on your side of the pond).

As for your second paragraph "these people see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe", we saw the words of those who post on the PM forum, what exactly would you like us to believe?
And you have stated repeatedly that people cannot find a single document that says the lethal control of Starlings and Sparrows in the U.S. is wrong? Well, how big of you! Just find me one document that advocates pulling off legs and 'zapping their little arses' and other such methods of control.

As a matter of point, this is not an American-non-American issue - if this was being conducted in the UK, do you think we would be any less vocal in our opposition?

I am totally sure there are many good genuine birders out there involved in Purple Martin conservation, but the nature of that forum is simply a slur on their good character ...and I think you are hardly doing them any favours too!


Edit: hadn't seen the thread by Steve when posting this, but not a surprise to see we say near the same. Wake up Draco, see what you want to see, believe what you want to believe?



Says it all for me...
 
MikeDale said:
Whose fault is that? No one is discriminating against them on this site. I think there are at least 3, maybe more moderators that are American. I have it on good authority that a lot more advertising in US magazines is imminent. No one is stopping Americans joining this site, unless they are advocating the torture of unwanted species.

Wow, a whole 3?
I don't think anyone is planning on joining here to advocate torture of anything. Although it certainly is not up to the gun haters to establish what anyone is feeling when they use one. You take the words of a few and use that as your basis to generalize an entire country.





To say that nobody cares about US sightings or stories and pictures is total crap.

Crap it may be, but that is certainly the impression I have gotten on my limited amount of time here. Perhaps there was something that caused that impression to be made?





Cruelty and torture of animals is abhorrent in any country and to see it glorified on the Purple Martin website is bound to get people enraged. There is no anti-American agenda here and if you think that you're paranoid.

Yes cruelty and torture are unacceptable anywhere... I think that has been covered and established several times over. However, don't go thinking you have a clue of what is in anothers mind unless you hear it directly from said individual. I'm hardly paranoid...I may in fact be a lot of things, but that is not one of them.

With that said, I've got better things to do than keep rehashing this over and over. with 5 whole pages of this bickering, seems as though you may have all been better off expeling your feelings on the site that's got you all so bent.
 
Steve said:
Draco, this is EXACTLY what you did !!!! it was you who has at at EVERY oppurtunity tried to deflect the issue onto Foxhunting or anything else you can!

This whole thread started out pointing out that some members on your board and another board were talking openly about torturing birds. You have been the one that has turned and twisted at every point defending there actions, when indeed the thread gathered momentum and others members voiced
there disgust at this, you immediatly started this utter hogwash on every other subject to deflect the heat from your barbaric practises. You as I said earlier are a disgrace to the birding world and as far as I am concerned the sooner you and your ilk realise the error of your ways the better. This has nothing to do with US vs UK and you know it as do most of our members.


Right on Steve. :clap:
 
Dear All

As a healing mechanism I think we all need to sit down together have a Mint Julep/Vodka Stoley/Guiness/White Lightening/Bud/Johnny Walker Red or Black/Soy Milk/Aquafina (insert favorite trans-atlantic beverage here) B :) and watch Winged migration together and regail eachother with bird stories....I would suggest Attenborough's BBC Life of Birds ... but it's probably not a good idea, he makes an effectual tribute to people who host Martins in Penn- if you happen to have the DVD pop it in the player and take a look at disk 10 part way through.

We need to remember why a lot of people keep these bird houses and host Martin colonies-it's because they genuinely love birds and, in a part of the states which has largely been deforested, we need to ask ourselves how well Martin populations would be doing without these bird-enthusiasts providing nesting sites. For the hundreds of thousands of Americans who provide a place for Martins to raise there young where there would otherwise be none, and don't hurt, harm or torture anything , I do (and you all should) salute them.

Torture is a bad thing, whoever or whatever it's practiced on, and I agree that there seem to be a few unappealing and trigger happy wackos in this particular organization, and it pulls the heart-strings to think of some half-dead House Sparrow mother (they are mothers too) suffering at the hands of a misguided bird-enthusiast, but some members, I think, need to gain a little perspective in this matter and be able to realize that "a few dozen crazies does not an evil nation or conservation movement make."

As a proud and openly patriotic American who lives in and loves Britain, her birds, her history and her people with all his heart, I wish all of us (both rather vituperative sides of this argument) could find the common ground in this matter rather than alienating one another and making the future fully global effort it will take to save birds and wildlife even harder.

Respectfully,

Blake
Oxford GB & Carmel CA

PS Seeing wild Martins nesting in Ponderosa Pine forests in the Los Padres National forest, is a marvelous spectacle, and anyone who has the oppurtunity should check it out (Cone Peak near Big Sur is a very good area especially from May-July).
 
Well said Blake!

An overview of the situation is required.



PUMA's need insects to feed on and cavities to nest in.

HOSP's need seeds/insects to feed on and cavities to nest in - but also seem to require a close proximity to Man.



How about shifting future PUMA tenements away from human habitation (half a mile or so?) and planting suitable (native) insect attracting plants/foodplants; digging shallow scrapes for insect breeding pools, etc.; you would only require a few agriculturally 'poor' strips of land to make a real difference, away from zones that would 'naturally' attract HOSP's.

Andy.
 
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What people are doing over in the States in terms of providing artificial accommodation for Purple Martins is an admirable project. Attempts to discourage (or even going as far as locally eliminate/eradicate) invasive, non-native species (introduced by Man) that are/may be/are strongly suspected of [depending on perspective taken] having an adverse effect on native fauna is a necessary evil. The same basic procedure is being undertaken all over the world - rats on seabird nesting islands, Ruddy Duck in UK/Europe... I have a feeling that it might even become necessary in Europe/UK to broaden the scope of 'alien' culling in the next few years to protect 'our' hole-nesting and woodland species.

There will always be a split in people who support culls of introduced species to protect native/declining wildlife and those who are strongly oppose the killing of any animals, so such debates are always going to be heated and vitriolic. What has inflamed the current debate is, however, that the issue under discussion here was the revelling in the torture of the cull targets entered into by some, and the apparent willingness to let these boasts persist on the websites concerned, until such a time that objections raised by BF members forced a rethink or perhaps just a temporary suspension of normal discussions until the furore died down and scrutiny was not as intense.

I am afraid to say Mark/Draco, that from your initial over-aggressive post on this thread (you must have known that the repulsive content of the worst posts being objected too would get people on this forum angry, even if the worst posts weren't on your site), through your repeated introduction of red herrings, attempt to set this up as a UK vs USA battle (both here and on your website), your insulting of other posters and so on, that you have scored a major PR own goal for your cause. While your reported discussions with PMCA about warnings regarding persecution of native species are applaudable, a newcomer to the debate may take a look at your website which still encourages posters to 'boast about their success' - not in general with regard to establishing Martin colonies, but specifically under the Sparrow and Starling forum, while you refer to the debate on here as dealing with all the 'wackos' (yet elsewhere say that you are trying to mend fences) and picking the objectors off one by one. I don't doubt for one minute that you are not yourself engaging in questionable practices regarding pest eradication (being very careful with my double negatives here), but I still get the impression that a blind eye might be turned to this behaviour in others, when a humane approach message ought to be sent out; especially when you all get left alone by people on this site again.

Anyway, maybe it's time that I had that drink, as suggested by Blake. Cheers, and good luck in getting a colony of PMs established.
 
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I haven't responded for several days to Mark's various comments directed at me as I've been busy researching all the links he provided. I'm quite deliberately not responding to any other posts, most of which are unreadable anyway with the lack of proper use of quoting who's said what, nor am I going to get into a tit-for-tat, he-said/she-said, tete-a-tete over minutiae. Still, apologies for the appalling length of this.



Draco said:
Purple Martins are classified by our DNR as “Birds of Greatest Conservation Need”. Here is one link:
Draco said:

Purple Martin is one of 99 species the State of Michigan's DNR lists. However, if you actually READ this list, you'll see that PUMA's State and Federal status doesn't merit a Special Concern, Threatened or Endangered classification. In fact, only 44 species on this list merit any "status" at all. As the intro to the SGCN (Species of Greatest Conservation Need) project states: "As we already know that federally and state listed species, as well as those identified as 'Special Concern,' are in need of conservation, we are including them as SGCN by default. The remaining task has been to determine if there are also other species that are in need of conservation and therefore should be a focus of the strategy and funding." (2004)


Draco said:
But, I suppose you think that our DNR is full of it like every other resource I have provided. I’m still waiting for ONE from you.
Mark, as I am not the one killing birds on some pretext of conservation, I don't have to provide anything. You are being pro-active in the killing, it is incumbent upon you to provide the scientific justification for doing so. Absent that justification, you are doing nothing more than perpetuating your obsession with playing bird landlord and supporting a thriving nest box and bookselling industry.


Draco said:
Since the Bird Breeding Survey means nothing to you perhaps you should look at my project instead of my discussion board. These are some of the questions that I am trying to get the answers to. You dismiss every source that I provide. Why should I look for more for you to dismiss? Why can’t you find a SINGLE source to support your position? Why does Arizona allow killing and trapping these birds? Are you going to work toward making this illegal in your state or don’t you care?
I know nothing about Arizona's bird-killing policies and it's irrelevant to this discussion in any case. As for the "sources" and "references" you've provided in this and subsequent messages, let's take a look at them, shall we?


Draco said:
Let’s start with the #1 authority on birds, Katy. Will you accept the words of the Audubon Society as truth? Here is a link and quotes:
Draco said:

This is a PRESS RELEASE. I asked for peer-reviewed data.


Draco said:
How do you feel about the National Wildlife Federation? Do they meet your standards, Katy? Here ya go:
Draco said:

This is an NGO NEWSLETTER. I asked for peer-reviewed data.


Draco said:
How about the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service? Do they count, Katy? Here:
Draco said:

This is a GENERAL PUBLIC INFO page. I asked for peer-reviewed data.


[QUOTE=Draco]Would you consider the State of Massachusetts a legitimate “organization”? Here is one of their LAWS:
http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/131-83.htm
[url="http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/131-83.htm"]http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/131-83.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
This was enacted to prevent the accumulation of BIRD DROPPINGS on public property. I asked for peer-reviewed data.


Draco said:
The State of Illinois:
Draco said:

This is another GENERAL PUBLIC INFO page. I asked for peer-reviewed data.


[QUOTE=Draco]You couldn’t find this from the Cornell Department of Natural Resources? Here it is:
[url="http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/fore...trail_wells.htm"]http://www.dnr.cornell.edu/ext/fore...trail_wells.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
This isn't from Cornell, it's a link from Cornell's site to another IRRELEVANT ARTICLE, this one entitled "How to make and enjoy your own bluebird trail" from the NY State Blue Bird Society. I asked for peer-reviewed data.


Draco said:
Here’s one of those studies you wanted. This one is from the University of New Mexico:
Draco said:

At last! Okay, it's nearly 30 years old and doesn't address my question, it was written by a Dr. Brown who sat (still sits?) on the scientific advisory board of the Purple Martin Conservation Association, and it wasn't from UNM but reprinted from The Auk, but hey -- you're starting to get the idea. This study at least starts to address House Sparrows and Starlings; the introductory "Summary" quoted here:

"In Sherman, Texas, local Purple Martin populations include a nonbreeding, floating group of males and females. These nonbreeding birds weaken a previously published hypothesis to explain early spring arrival in martins. The hole-limitation hypothesis of early arrival is modified. Instead of arriving early to compete mainly intraspecifically for nest sites as in the past, Purple Martins now may arrive early to compete interspecifically with House Sparrows and Starlings."


However, it still doesn't answer my question: "Where are the scientific studies that show House Sparrows and European Starlings have had negative population impacts on Purple Martins (or any other native North American species for that matter)?"


FROM 4/17, directed at Steve:


Draco said:
You and your ilk have spouted more hogwash than I could come up with. I relied on facts and backed them up with the references that were requested.
Well, Mark, here's what your references have to say about the status of Purple Martins, starting with your own Michigan Dept of Natural Resources, beginning with the first link cited as "Web Sources to Consult" in Michigan's DNR Memo regarding "Identifying Species in Greatest Need of Conservation." I.e., these are the sources the DNR is telling its consulting scientists to use in considering and making recommendations. I believe you'll immediately notice a pattern that cuts across all agencies and organizations cited in terms of how threatened the Purple Martin is by any factor.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

FROM: NatureServe Explorer
http://www.natureserve.org/explorer/servlet/NatureServe?sourceTemplate=species_RptStatus.wmt&loadTemplate=species_RptComprehensive.wmt&paging=&elKey=104037&save=false&page=1


KEY:
G1: Critically Imperiled At very high risk of extinction due to extreme rarity (often 5 or fewer populations), very steep declines, or other factors.
G2: Imperiled — At high risk of extinction due to very restricted range, very few populations (often 20 or fewer), steep declines, or other factors.
G3: Vulnerable — At moderate risk of extinction due to a restricted range, relatively few populations (often 80 or fewer), recent and widespread declines, or other factors.
G4: Apparently Secure — Uncommon but not rare; some cause for long-term concern due to declines or other factors.
G5: Secure — Common; widespread, and abundant.


Status is assessed and documented at three distinct geographic scales-global (G), national (N), and state/province (S). These status assessments are based on the best available information, and consider a variety of factors such as abundance, distribution, population trends, and threats. (B) Breeding.


Purple Martin

Global Status: G5
National Status: N5B


U.S. State Status

Alabama (S5B), Arizona (S4), Arkansas (S4B,S4N), California (S3), Colorado (S3B), Connecticut (S1B), Delaware (S5B), District of Columbia (S1B,S5N), Florida (SNRB), Georgia (S5), Idaho (S1?B), Illinois (S5), Indiana (S4B), Iowa (S5B,S5N), Kansas (S4B), Kentucky (S5B), Louisiana (S5B), Maine (S3B), Maryland (S5B), Massachusetts (S2), Michigan (S5), Minnesota (SNRB), Mississippi (S5B), Missouri (SNRB), Navajo Nation (S2S3B), Nebraska (S4), Nevada (S3?N), New Hampshire (S1B), New Jersey (S4B), New Mexico (S4B,S4N), New York (S5), North Carolina (S5B), North Dakota (SNRB), Ohio (S5), Oklahoma (S5B), Oregon (S2B), Pennsylvania (S4B), Rhode Island (S3B), South Carolina (SNRB), South Dakota (S5B), Tennessee (S5), Texas (S5B), Utah (S2S3B), Vermont (S3S4B), Virginia (S5), Washington (S3B), West Virginia (S4B), Wisconsin (S4S5B), Wyoming (SHB)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------



FROM: IUCN
http://www.redlist.org

Not listed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

FROM: Partners In Flight's Bird Conservation Plans, US and Canada
http://www.partnersinflight.org/WatchListNeeds/default.htm


Not listed.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


FROM: North American Bird Conservation Initiative, Species Assessment sources
http://www.nabci-us.org/sppassess.html



Audubon Watch List 2002 - not listed
Audubon's "State of the Birds" 2004 - not listed
US Forest Service Sensitive Species list - not listed
US Fish and Wildlife Service Birds of Conservation Concern 2002 - not listed
US Fish and Wildlife Service Species of Management Concern - listed as "Common" ("Common species are generally considered to have secure populations.")
Bureau of Land Management Sensitive Species list - website down for "unanticipated maintenance"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


This will be the last post I make on this subject as Mark clearly has no interest in, respect for or understanding of bona fide scientific inquiry.


While this thread did in fact start with the criticism of the manner in which several species of birds were being killed, it also asked for the scientific justification for the killings in the first place. IMHO, this is equally important as it has a direct bearing on how we all ask our governments to address the issue of wildlife management generally and the efficacy of culling in particular. And it is painfully obvious from the paucity of data on this particular subject that more time and money need to be invested in research around the world and, in terms of this thread, in the US in particular.
 
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Nice try Blake and I spent a half of an hour writing a response to try to come to terms, as you and others suggested. Katy, who started this, has decided to throw a wrench into the deal. Guess it is back to the old ways. I'm going out to do some yard work and if the post that I don't want to read still stands it will be back to square one. I can't only deal with the reasonable people on this board and ignore the rest. I've saved the document that I wrote to come to terms in case the said post is deleted when I return.

Mark
 
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Dingoblu said:
Wow, a whole 3?

Just how many American moderators do you think we need? The ones we have do an an excellent job. There are only 4500-5000 American members of BF, very much the minority as yet.


Dingoblu said:
Although it certainly is not up to the gun haters to establish what anyone is feeling when they use one. You take the words of a few and use that as your basis to generalize an entire country

Who is you? Do you mean me? I personally am fully in favour of guns, I have two to be exact. Or perhaps you mean 'them'. The huge number of Anti-American Gun Haters on the forum. Call it what you will, I call it paranoia, you will be fine when everyone stops picking on you.

You say that nobody is interested in posts written by Americans. There is a surefire way to get a reply to one of your posts. Method 1 is to post something interesting. Method 2 which I see you have chosen is to post utter drivel.
 
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Draco said:
... Katy, who started this, has decided to throw a wrench into the deal

Threadstarter was NOT Katy Penland!

Deal, what deal???

Draco said:
Guess it is back to the old ways.

Like allowing Posts on torture of birds to stay on your forum?!?

Draco said:
I'm going out to do some yard work and if the post that I don't want to read still stands it will be back to square one. I can't only deal with the reasonable people on this board and ignore the rest. I've saved the document that I wrote to come to terms in case the said post is deleted when I return.

You haven't said which Post you'd like deleted yet!?! If it is one of your own then you can do it yourself - if it is a Post by another that you feel breaches the guidelines here at BF, you can report it.

Andy.
 
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Andy,

It was Katy. She sent me a PM on the 8th about being upset about my Website, so she would not help me get a photo of a Cooper's to put in the next issue of the PMCA Update magazine. the PMCA and I were working on and have finished a nice article on how all Purple Martin landlords should protect all native birds. It was not a nice PM and I replied with my opinion. It is too coincidental that this thread started on that day. She was not the poster that started this, but she got the ball rolling. Now when she sees that folks are starting to try to mend fences she throws this post that I have not yet read in at just the right time to stop it (I scanned enough of it to know that it is yet another negative post). She hasn't posted in days, again too coincidental. She does not want peace, she wants me gone and I will honor her wish after a few more hours or days. It seemed like everyone was trying to stop what has been going on. You are not stupid, so quit asking stupid questions. Mending fences was the "deal" that I referred to.

NOBODY EVER POSTED ABOUT TORTURE ON MY FORUM!!! STOP ACCUSING ME AND MAKING UP LIES ABOUT MY BOARD!!! If you can prove your claims I will be glad to retract that statement. If you cannot you are a liar at best.

I have not read Katy's post, but I will be copying and reading it after this post. I do not report anyone on any board and I know how they work, seeing as I have one.

I was told that I should stay out of this and they were correct. After Katy invited me to take part (see page two) I thought that I could help. I now know that I cannot. I will permanently delete my open forums. The other Purple Martin boards will continue to delete your posts and ban you. Life will go on as it did before April 8th and you and I and others will have wasted a lot of time.

Mark
 
Draco said:
Andy,

It was Katy. She sent me a PM on the 8th about being upset about my Website, so she would not help me get a photo of a Cooper's to put in the next issue of the PMCA Update magazine. the PMCA and I were working on and have finished a nice article on how all Purple Martin landlords should protect all native birds. It was not a nice PM and I replied with my opinion. It is too coincidental that this thread started on that day. She was not the poster that started this, but she got the ball rolling. Now when she sees that folks are starting to try to mend fences she throws this post that I have not yet read in at just the right time to stop it (I scanned enough of it to know that it is yet another negative post). She hasn't posted in days, again too coincidental. She does not want peace, she wants me gone and I will honor her wish after a few more hours or days. It seemed like everyone was trying to stop what has been going on. You are not stupid, so quit asking stupid questions. Mending fences was the "deal" that I referred to.

NOBODY EVER POSTED ABOUT TORTURE ON MY FORUM!!! STOP ACCUSING ME AND MAKING UP LIES ABOUT MY BOARD!!! If you can prove your claims I will be glad to retract that statement. If you cannot you are a liar at best.

I have not read Katy's post, but I will be copying and reading it after this post. I do not report anyone on any board and I know how they work, seeing as I have one.

I was told that I should stay out of this and they were correct. After Katy invited me to take part (see page two) I thought that I could help. I now know that I cannot. I will permanently delete my open forums. The other Purple Martin boards will continue to delete your posts and ban you. Life will go on as it did before April 8th and you and I and others will have wasted a lot of time.

Mark

Good riddance, wide-screen and all.
 
Trev, there must be some embedded code in my post that's causing this because the entire thread looked fine prior to that. We're working on trying to figure out where it's occurring. Abject apologies! ;)
 
Katy Penland said:
Trev, there must be some embedded code in my post that's causing this because the entire thread looked fine prior to that. We're working on trying to figure out where it's occurring. Abject apologies! ;)

No probs, K!
 
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