Birdlife is overdoing it (Times of Malta) (2 Viewers)

[z-ben]

This massacre has been going on since god was a lad and no amount of bitching on this or any other forum will make one jot of difference so why try to score points off one another? Lolo Williams made a film about this which was unfortunately not shown nationwide. Only a concerted effort by all to put pressure on the Maltese goverment by the EU could help so why not put your energies into something that may result in change.

 

[deborah4]

This massacre has been going on since god was a lad and no amount of bitching on this or any other forum will make one jot of difference so why try to score points off one another? Lolo Williams made a film about this which was unfortunately not shown nationwide. Only a concerted effort by all to put pressure on the Maltese goverment by the EU could help so why not put your energies into something that may result in change.

This massacre has been going on since god was a lad and no amount of bitching on this or any other forum will make one jot of difference so why try to score points off one another?

Not sure whether your referring to my posts as being 'bitching' or 'point scoring' - but I can only repeat that, Malta's legislation and infrastructure on hunting within it's national borders does not adequately comply with the requirements of the Birds Directive. Directives have direct effect on Member States in that the European Commission can initiate legal action in the ECJ. Like many others, I've written to Euro MPs, signed Petitions and helped bring it to attention to everyone I come across. It's fine to discuss/debate the issue on a Bird Forum, in addition to the above, but we need to be clear that Malta is in breach of her obligations under European Law. As a member of the Community, that is not tenable.


Changing laws, changing political attitudes, changing cultural opinions is negotiable through campaigning, politics, education etc but is a long term process and one that we are all entitled to participate in - indeed, many of us do just that as are birders such as Adin, living as he does in Malta - but if a Law is already in place and it's being broken, in eyes of the Courts, that's non-negotiable. It's illegal. Period. The first duty is to try and stop the massacres immediately through enforcement in Malta by presence on the ground by BL/Proact, Maltese policing and the European Courts . No amount of socialist pandering, psychological profiling or projections of one's own frustrations about politics in general onto the situation in Malta is going to change anything in the short term. You don't place a table in the middle of a battle ground in the hope of reconciliation talks, you must first of all have at least a temporary cessation of hostilities and recognition of the rule of law as a primary prerequisite to the long term goals of compromise and mutual understanding.

 

[Jos Stratford]

I didnt agree to European law either, we joined the EEC, no referendum on the EU, that isnt democratic.

Yes it is democratic, the decision was taken by a government voted in by the majority. Like it or not, that is the way a democracy works - the population elects its government and that government makes decisions on behaf n the population. If you don't like it, vote for another party.

However, as all the main parties support the current status quo, then clearly your voice in opposition will count for little, i.e. as it should in democacy

Laws are created by governments of politicians, what qualifies them to dictate anything in my life?

Er, the small fact that they were elected to do that?

 

[Russlac123]

Yes it is democratic, the decision was taken by a government voted in by the majority. Like it or not, that is the way a democracy works - the population elects its government and that government makes decisions on behaf n the population. If you don't like it, vote for another party.

I didnt vote for any European politician, nobody voted for our last prime minister. That previous government promised us referendums, we didnt get them, they lied, same as Maltese government. I dont like that, niether do Maltese hunters. We cant even enforce our own laws, what the hell makes you think malta can enforce a law on people out in the middle of nowhere. Once we put pressure on the Maltese government to take action in ??? years time will there be anything left? The point is saving the birds from a shotgun barrel TODAY, not getting all anal retentive about rules etc.. We have more laws than anywhere else, we have highest illegal drug use, highest underage sex, highest alcohol problem, why? Many of our youth dont respect it, they see a load of lying cheating perverts, and think why should I listen to them?

Er, the small fact that they were elected to do that?

If European politicians dictate laws that involve my life, they should be elected to do so, by the people whos lives they meddle in. They werent. How the hell is it democracy?

 

[Apodemus]

Not sure what the connection between under-age sex and Maltese hunting is.

Maybe somebody needs to lie down in a dark room for a while.

 

[dantheman]

Not sure what the connection between under-age sex and Maltese hunting is.

(Under age sex - pervs preying on youngsters - birds of prey - falcons - maltese falcon - maltese hunting? ... ok, maybe not ... )

Agree it's a bit irrelevent, but do agree that there is more than one way of looking at this. It's people and mindsets we are dealing with, tradition both in the national consciousness, and in individuals. Laws are just a part of it. Education (and hence 'public opinion'), enforcement of the law, both are important.

 

[Russlac123]

Thats all I ve been trying to point out. 'The law' has hit a brickwall, how long will it take for political pressure, enforcement, funding, policing etc... to reach the back fields of Malta, let alone Greece, Cyprus etc.. how many birds will be lost by then? If we cant fully enforce 'our law' in the cities, then what chance do the Maltese have in rural areas. Each minute we wait for some legislation or the other, birds are killed never to return.

but if a Law is already in place and it's being broken, in eyes of the Courts, that's non-negotiable. It's illegal. Period

You are right, in an ideal world, great, you may obey and respect the law, many do not. Period. Be real. Does this rigidity stop birds being shot now? No. Would an alternative tactic stop birds being shot in the interim? Possibly, why not try?

 

[maltese falcon]

Today a marsh harrier came low over my school's football pitch... I doubt it's still alive

 

[DunnoKev]

Russlac, I respect your right to hold an opinion, but there comes a point when you have to accept others are perfectly entitled to hold differeing opinions. The legal case has been put extremely eloquently, the political machinery described and the need for education voiced.

Thats all I ve been trying to point out. 'The law' has hit a brickwall, how long will it take for political pressure, enforcement, funding, policing etc... to reach the back fields of Malta, let alone Greece, Cyprus etc.. how many birds will be lost by then? If we cant fully enforce 'our law' in the cities, then what chance do the Maltese have in rural areas. Each minute we wait for some legislation or the other, birds are killed never to return.

So it's great you're so emotionally charged up, but 'never to return'? c'mon, this is well OTT. The individual ain't gonna fly back, f'sure(!), but one of his siblings probably will. In the big scheme of things all the science points to bigger threats causing species decline than illegal shooting. For instance, your own lifestyle to date will have contributed to the indirect loss of more individual birds "never to return" than any Maltese shooter could ever hope to blast out the sky on their own. Birds will be able to pass safely over Malta, probably generations hence. The law, politics and education will win the day. It just ain't going to be right away today. It's taken several thousand years so far for mankind to become this enlightened, so grit your teeth, with any luck just a few decades more to go.

I know that isn't what you're willing to hear, but, please, less heat, more light.

 

[JackAshore]

how can we call for the Maltese to end their slaughter of endangered species, while doing absolutely nothing about it in this country.

In the UK when an endangered/protected specie is shot down it is big news. Here in Malta it is taken for granted. It is no news. That is what endangered/protected species come to Malta to do - die.

Your comment makes no sense. Of course illegalities occur everywhere, but you cant compare what happens in the UK to what happens in Malta.

The UK has breeding raptor populations - every spring migrants try to set up territories here in Malta and apart from 1/2 pairs since the spring hunting ban, the others get picked off! And make no mistake about it - this is an improvement.

 

[Irish Kite]

In the UK when an endangered/protected specie is shot down it is big news. Here in Malta it is taken for granted. It is no news. That is what endangered/protected species come to Malta to do - die.

Your comment makes no sense. Of course illegalities occur everywhere, but you cant compare what happens in the UK to what happens in Malta.

The UK has breeding raptor populations - every spring migrants try to set up territories here in Malta and apart from 1/2 pairs since the spring hunting ban, the others get picked off! And make no mistake about it - this is an improvement.

+ 1

Some of the nonsense on this tread would be funny if the subject wasn't so serious:-C

 

[Russlac123]

the subject wasn't so serious

Its a thread on an internet forum about birds, not an emergency UN meeting!

 

[captaincarot]

Its a thread on an internet forum about birds, not an emergency UN meeting!

which is exactly why the problem persists throughout Europe attitudes such as this.

 

[Russlac123]

which is exactly why the problem persists throughout Europe attitudes such as this.

Maltese hunters still hunt, the Maltese government doesnt stop them, there isnt a huge outcry from the Maltese population, the EU doesnt enforce its powers, I doubt the British government are voicing too many concerns, the French hunt and eat songbirds, Greece, Cyprus, Italy, other states carry on hunting and are not highly concerned, thats without the Eastern states. Limited progress has been made, thats all it will be unless you change attitudes, not force our values on them. A lot of Europeans do not see it as a serious problem. You re saying they all have the wrong attitude (!), because they do not think like Captain Carot? We all love birds, but maybe biased attitudes like yours are counter productive?

 

[z-ben]

Not sure whether your referring to my posts as being 'bitching' or 'point scoring' - but I can only repeat that, Malta's legislation and infrastructure on hunting within it's national borders does not adequately comply with the requirements of the Birds Directive. Directives have direct effect on Member States in that the European Commission can initiate legal action in the ECJ. Like many others, I've written to Euro MPs, signed Petitions and helped bring it to attention to everyone I come across. It's fine to discuss/debate the issue on a Bird Forum, in addition to the above, but we need to be clear that Malta is in breach of her obligations under European Law. As a member of the Community, that is not tenable.


Changing laws, changing political attitudes, changing cultural opinions is negotiable through campaigning, politics, education etc but is a long term process and one that we are all entitled to participate in - indeed, many of us do just that as are birders such as Adin, living as he does in Malta - but if a Law is already in place and it's being broken, in eyes of the Courts, that's non-negotiable. It's illegal. Period. The first duty is to try and stop the massacres immediately through enforcement in Malta by presence on the ground by BL/Proact, Maltese policing and the European Courts . No amount of socialist pandering, psychological profiling or projections of one's own frustrations about politics in general onto the situation in Malta is going to change anything in the short term. You don't place a table in the middle of a battle ground in the hope of reconciliation talks, you must first of all have at least a temporary cessation of hostilities and recognition of the rule of law as a primary prerequisite to the long term goals of compromise and mutual understanding.

We all have known for some time that the government of Malta is not complying with EU law by allowing this to continue and that they are not then only ones but if the EU does nothing this will never change .The whole issue has been widely publicised over the years to no avail so i for one will not be signing any more petitions as it is a complete waste of time if the powers that be will not act there is obviously no money in it.

 

[Adin 92]

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20101013/local/hunters-charged-with-bribing-police-officer

Signs of improvement in justice courts sentences

 

[Upland Birder]

The bottom line is that what is happening in Malta (the mass slaughter of birds) is illegal, extremely cruel and a disgrace. As far as I can see the Maltese government is weak and is colluding with these so called hunting activities, so is the EU and so it continues.

The mass slaughter of birds in Malta is an act of mass violence against creatures that have a right to live on this planet just as our species does. They also have a right to coexist with our species without being blasted out of the sky by misguided humans who are in denial, believe that it is okay to commit the slaughter and provide justification statements to the world to support and reinforce their cruel activities.

Dean:C

 

[John B (not the sloop)]

The bottom line is that what is happening in Malta (the mass slaughter of birds) is illegal, extremely cruel and a disgrace. As far as I can see the Maltese government is weak and is colluding with these so called hunting activities, so is the EU and so it continues.

The mass slaughter of birds in Malta is an act of mass violence against creatures that have a right to live on this planet just as our species does. They also have a right to coexist with our species without being blasted out of the sky by misguided humans who are in denial, believe that it is okay to commit the slaughter and provide justification statements to the world to support and reinforce their cruel activities.

Dean:C

:clap::clap::clap: Couldn't have expressed it better myself. Your second paragraph needs to be on a huge banner festooning the European Parliament buildings in Strasbourg and Brussels. I might substitute "shallow cultural heritage based excuses" for "justification statements" though. :t:

 

[thenorthernmonkey]

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100502/letters/birdlife-is-overdoing-it

Interesting to see it from the perspective of a non-hunting Maltan. Comments are rather interesting too.

My personal take on it is that what the hunters are unwilling to recognise is that they aren't "their" birds that they are shooting. They "belong" (if I many use that term) to the people of Europe as a whole.

They also state that they have been hunting and trapping for hundreds of years so why should we be worring about it now? Again they fail to appreciate that populations can often sustain damage to their numbers from one source eg hunting. however when their are multiple negative impacts such as desertification of their wintering grounds and change of farming practices in their summering grounds, populations become much more susceptable to declines.

I'm not saying that hunting should be banned. I'm all for hunting, but only in a sustainable form. I wonder how much longer our migratory birds will sustain these compounded onslaughts...

Who still thinks Birdlife are "overdoing it"??

http://www.birdlife.org/community/2...-protected-birds-and-illegal-hunting-reports/

 

[willito]

Who still thinks Birdlife are "overdoing it"??

http://www.birdlife.org/community/2...-protected-birds-and-illegal-hunting-reports/

Well, when I read reports like this, I can only think of insane people. I wonder if Malta maybe lacks of psychiatrists instead of police reinforcement to properly handle with those poachers.|=(|