Birds and the Shooting fraternity (1 Viewer)

[trw]

I realise killing birds as a hobby may be distasteful to many birdwatchers but I recently had a curious encounter with some Pheasant shooters.

I visit an area in South Cumbria with a healthy population of wild birds

A few years ago I found a wonderful habitat, ungrazed by sheep and full of gorse.
Every time I go there are regular sightings of Yellowhammer amongst other birds like Common Redpoll,StockDove,Willow Warbler Redstart etc.

I could never understand why they managed to hang on here until I met a group of men who arrived in a four wheel drive towing a trailer.

They were restocking pheasant feeders.
For those who are not aware, they are those upside down blue buckets you see dotted around.

They told me there is enough seed in there to last all year.
No sooner had they gone than two Male Yellowhammer descended upon the seed which spills out the bottom of the feeders.

Problem solved!This is why they have managed to survive here.It is because of the Pheasant shooters.

I have counted 9 Yellowhammers here this year.

On or way around we came across the group again about 2 miles further on.
They were restocking the blue feeders in another area.
This time is was a fenced off sheep free habitat full of dense heather.
Not ideal for Yellowhammer but the area is full of Skylark,Linnet,Meadow Pipit,some Reed Bunting,a pair of Stonechat and in boggy area,I could hear a Common Snipe chipping[there was a Cuckoo nearby].

So an area of dense vegetation provided a home for not only Pheasants but also a habitat for many birds which would otherwise not be here.
There was another fenced off area nearby without blue feeders where I saw Reed Bunting,Linnet,Stonechat,Skylark and Meadow Pipit.

It made me review my thinking about people who enjoy killing bird for fun.
I also wondered whether dedicated Nature Conservation groups could do more by providing suitable habitats and feeding, out in the wilds and not just on dedicated nature reserves,

 

[Bob Philpott]

Pratincol, providing suitable habitats etc for wild birds is something that farmers are already paid for under European Common Agricultural funding. Those that do provide this are doing something above and beyond food production so I am happy for my taxes to help pay for that. It doesn't need to be Conservation groups as they won't have the funding or staffing, I am happy to leave it to farmers if done properly.

I have nothing against shooting but don't forget Pheasants are an introduced species put out in very large numbers each year. No-one really knows of any adverse effect they may have on the environment. They are omnivores and will eat grain and other things besides. There is a feeling that they have had an adverse effect on the population of adders and others.

 

[Nutcracker]

And even more importantly, how many raptors did you see?

Some shooting estates have a good record when it comes to upholding the law regarding protection of raptors, but most don't.

 

[Farnboro John]

No-one really knows of any adverse effect they may have on the environment. They are omnivores and will eat grain and other things besides. There is a feeling that they have had an adverse effect on the population of adders and others.

I have also heard it suggested by (non-pheasant) shooters that the very high density of pheasants caused by releases is responsible for higher levels of disease in game birds which naturally has a more deleterious effect on the species that are not augmented by releases: Black and Red Grouse and Grey Partridge. Funnily enough you don't see much in print about this theory from the shooting fraternity.

John

 

[trw]

And even more importantly, how many raptors did you see?

Some shooting estates have a good record when it comes to upholding the law regarding protection of raptors, but most don't.

Plenty off Buzzards around.
I am not talking about a Shooting Estate here.
This is a huge area of open countryside mainly grazed by sheep but there are pockets of fenced off areas where gorse,heather and bracken are growing.
As I said I realise shooting birds for fun may be distasteful to many birdwatchers but the side effects for some bird species, in the area I am referring to, are noticeable.
Personally I would rather shooting of birds was banned altogether but that is unlikely to happen.
So in the real World whereby birdwatchers and bird shooters have to live together I can see that there are some spin- offs for some wild birds.

 

[Mike Crawley]

Through conversations and some personal research I have found a good deal of wildfowlers are conservation minded and manage their shooting reserves very well with non-target species benefiting

 

[AlfArbuthnot]

I also wondered whether dedicated Nature Conservation groups could do more by providing suitable habitats and feeding, out in the wilds and not just on dedicated nature reserves,

It already happens, and we all pay for it:

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/farming/funding/es/mesmewinterfeeding.aspx

Farmers receive subsidy payments for feeding loose seed mixes to farmland birds, paid for by the taxpayer.

There are also numerous subsidies for creating/improving habitat:

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/farming/funding/es/agents/elsoptions/birds.aspx

Next time you're out in the countryside, or driving past farmland, look for rough grassland and other vegetation in field corners or in wild strips along hedges. There's a lot of it about.

 

[Ruff]

My experience, including on this forum, tells me that there is a strong contingent of self-styled 'animal lovers' that don't care what shooters may do in the way of conservation efforts- they want them gone. In North American, there would hardly be a natural wildlife area left (outside little city parks) were it not for money and votes from the hunting communities, but one encounters many urbanized birders that more thrive on condemning those folks than preserving the natural world for the birds.

 

[trw]

It already happens, and we all pay for it:

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/farming/funding/es/mesmewinterfeeding.aspx

Farmers receive subsidy payments for feeding loose seed mixes to farmland birds, paid for by the taxpayer.

There are also numerous subsidies for

creating/improving habitat:

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/farming/funding/es/agents/elsoptions/birds.aspx

Next time you're out in the countryside, or driving past farmland, look for rough grassland and other vegetation in field corners or in wild strips along hedges. There's a lot of it about.

Thanks for that!

My pet hate is seeing Lapwings settle down in fields early Spring.

No sooner than they start nesting than the tractors arrive:you know what happens next!

In my heart of hearts I was hoping these uncut areas were left there because there were nests there[there are still 8 Lapwing in the area].

Maybe I am hoping for too much.

On my walk in the area I did see a grounded Skylark near an uncut area plus 4 Pied Wagtails including 2 juveniles.

Whatever is going on it was the first time I can remember so many uncut sections in the local fields so something is afoot.

In another location not far from here the wildfowlers are making scrapes and digging out ponds.

Last Summer some Lapwings took advantage of the scrape and I even saw a Green Sandpiper one day.

It would be wonderful if a local bird focussed group could match the wildfowlers efforts.

 

[Robin Edwards]

My experience, including on this forum, tells me that there is a strong contingent of self-styled 'animal lovers' that don't care what shooters may do in the way of conservation efforts- they want them gone. In North American, there would hardly be a natural wildlife area left (outside little city parks) were it not for money and votes from the hunting communities, but one encounters many urbanized birders that more thrive on condemning those folks than preserving the natural world for the birds.

So let's hear more from those ethical and law abiding "sportsmen" and see them deliver an improvement in respectability of shooting organisations and towards predator-existance across swathes of UK uplands. The industry is often to be found in denial which only drives intollerance amongst caring naturalists who aren't all the "fluffy bunny brigade" you infer Ruff.

http://birdersagainst.org/

 

[trw]

So let's hear more from those ethical and law abiding "sportsmen" and see them deliver an improvement in respectability of shooting organisations and towards predator-existance across swathes of UK uplands. The industry is often to be found in denial which only drives intollerance amongst caring naturalists who aren't all the "fluffy bunny brigade" you infer Ruff.

http://birdersagainst.org/

Good point and well made!

 

[Tideliner]

Some farmers , but not all farmers apply for and receive money for conservation plots on their farms in many cases these strips work very well providing winter food sources for finches and buntings , but in many cases that is not so. To be successful the farmer does have to have a real interest in the wildlife on their farm , but again in many cases the farmers take the grants , but only pay lip service to conservation on their farm. The big risk about conservation payments is how long will they continue. In an era where public spending is being cut to the bone I expect in a decade or so most conservation payments will stop and any gains made at the moment will be lost as the farmer returns to making the max profit out of his land. In contrast as long as shooting continues shooters will plough money back into farms for the conservation of their game which will have a positive effect on a wide range of wildlife.

Most shooters pay a lot of money to the farmer to shoot his land ( £5-£10 per acre ) , they do a lot of conservation work , mainly to encourage their game birds , but what suits game birds will often suit other birds so they benefit from the conservation work and pheasant food. Disease in released game birds is very rare and I have not heard of any cases where it has spread to native game birds like grouse.

Its true we do hear of headline cases where raptors are shot on shoots , but that’s very on a tiny minority of shoots, Look at the expanding populations of marsh harriers , peregrines and buzzards across the country – that would never have happened if many shoots tried to control raptors. Yes there are bad apples , but they are very much a minority

 

[Farnboro John]

The industry is often to be found in denial which only drives intollerance amongst caring naturalists who aren't all the "fluffy bunny brigade" you infer Ruff.

http://birdersagainst.org/

No indeed, I am certainly a caring naturalist but one who is partial to venison, hare, rabbit and suitably cooked gamebirds.

John

 

[Farnboro John]

Disease in released game birds is very rare and I have not heard of any cases where it has spread to native game birds like grouse.

Its true we do hear of headline cases where raptors are shot on shoots , but that’s very on a tiny minority of shoots, Look at the expanding populations of marsh harriers , peregrines and buzzards across the country – that would never have happened if many shoots tried to control raptors. Yes there are bad apples , but they are very much a minority

I don't suppose shooting estates advertise any issues with disease: once the birds are released they have no responsibility for their medical welfare (correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember ever hearing of a vet called out to treat a nye of pheasants.)

As for the raptor question, its whole sections of the shooting fraternity that are the problem. Perhaps pheasant estates are mostly clean, but grouse shooters en masse have been responsible for the extirpation of Hen Harriers from England, pursuing them not only on the moors but also in their wintering areas in Norfolk etc. Its the vast majority of a very particular kind of shooters.

John

 

[AlfArbuthnot]

The big risk about conservation payments is how long will they continue. In an era where public spending is being cut to the bone I expect in a decade or so most conservation payments will stop...

...Most shooters pay a lot of money to the farmer to shoot his land ( £5-£10 per acre ) , they do a lot of conservation work , mainly to encourage their game birds , but what suits game birds will often suit other birds

You're contradicting yourself a bit here. You expect the central Govt and EU funding for conservation measures which are specifically directed at finches and buntings to dry up due to economics, yet you don't seem to expect that the number of people willing to pay "a lot of money" for sport will decrease, and in any case the conservation benenfits that they provide are just incidental, because they're directed at Pheasants. So any benefit for finches and buntings from shooting is just 'by accident'.

That doesn't make much sense as a comparison. And isn't it the case that the number of shoots and birds released has declined since the economic collapse, while the amount of central Govt funding and the number of agri-environmental options has been stable or increased over the same period?

That would seem to suggest that it's the shooters who are the most unreliable conservationists, and what they do provide is only accidental anyway. Doesn't seem a very safe bet to me.

 

[stuartvine]

Quite a few of the hunting fraternity are very conservation minded. I'm referring particularly to duck hunters in North America. As "Ruff" pointed out they have done a lot to preserve their targets' environment.

There are others however, from the criminals who kill birds of prey in the UK to the happy blasters in some Mediterranean countries who will shoot anything that moves (albeit illegally, but enforcement is key to these things)...

 

[timsg80]

What I really can't stand is the number of people who come to bird shoots not knowing a thing about birds and having a complete disregard for nature. Someone I know has been on a birdshoot and reported that people shot Ravens,Buzzards, Sparrowhawks, Mistle Thrushes and Blackbirds, having 'mistaken them for crows.' Another time I came upon a shoot near my house and discovered an enormous pile of bird corpses, including Woodcocks, Snipe and Jays, which it seemed were going to be left unused to rot. It is fair to say that the shoot has ensured large areas of woodland have been well-maintained around our area, which has been great for birdlife, but there is something truly vile about the way people enjoy a day out killing such wonderful creatures. It has deprived our area of Woodcocks and Snipe now and has severely reduced the number of Rooks we have nesting in our rookery. One day we had a pair of Mallard seemingly intending to nest on our pond, but only one was present the next day after a birdshoot. Instead, we have an infestation of Pheasants and Red-legged Partridges, whose numbers are increased absurdly every autumn. I feel that any advantages it has had on our local wildlife are severely outweighed by its numerous disadvantages.

 

[string boozel]

I believe that if you are shooting in order to eat it's less objectionable than aimlessly blasting everything that flies just for the sheer fun of it. I would think that if you just want to fire guns you could go clay shooting. Illegally shooting competitive species such as raptors should never be acceptable though the punishments for such crimes do not appear to have a true deterrent effect. Declining species such as Snipe, Woodcock and Black Grouse should also be given full protection, it seems crazy that increasingly rare birds such as these can be legally shot. Well managed shooting estates do make a positive contribution to the environment and it's unfortunate that the rogue ones sully the reputation of the others.

James

 

[Farnboro John]

I believe that if you are shooting in order to eat it's less objectionable than aimlessly blasting everything that flies just for the sheer fun of it. I would think that if you just want to fire guns you could go clay shooting. Illegally shooting competitive species such as raptors should never be acceptable though the punishments for such crimes do not appear to have a true deterrent effect. Declining species such as Snipe, Woodcock and Black Grouse should also be given full protection, it seems crazy that increasingly rare birds such as these can be legally shot. Well managed shooting estates do make a positive contribution to the environment and it's unfortunate that the rogue ones sully the reputation of the others.

James

Its not just birds, a lot of the grouse estates (wouldn't you know it!) have used the excuse of Mountain Hares carrying louping ill to blitz them as well. I can vouch for Mountain Hare being damn good eating but I've seen pictures of camper van sized heaps of Mountain Hares being left to rot (unless of course the keepers have laced the heap with carbofuran or something, I'd believe almost anything of grouse shooters.)

John

 

[string boozel]

Yes it does seem that grouse moors in particular are serial offenders when it comes to bad practices, Perhaps those guilty of breaking any laws should have shooting banned for a period of time even if it's done by employees and not necessarily sanctioned by the owners.

James.