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Buying Chinese products (binoculars) yes or no (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter kristoffer
- Start date
What the hell are you talking about?
Dont you eat shoyu soy? Dont you use snickers? Dont you brush your teeth? Dont you have a car or your parents/relatives?
MANY things are made in China nowadays!
If you dont buy Zen-Ray, wont make a difference. You still will buy or you are already buying and using chinese products!
spitfiretriple
Well-known member
Thank you! I thought your post #80 was pretty good too!
I can't say that I'm too happy about the fact that the leading economcial superpower in a few years time and in the next decades will be a nation with very limited concerns about nature, and natural values. Quite scary I would say and not exactly what this planet needs.
History is abundantly clear with China but I also know many people very close to me who have witnessed it first hand.
1. Using prisoners and the RELATIVES of prisoners (who did no wrong) as human shields during uprisings. These uprisings occur today, as evidenced by the recent Uigher activity.
2. Between Hong Kong and China, there are several bodies of water. Several of my close relatives tell of prisoners beaten and tortured, then showing up in HK waters. These bodies are often bound extremely constrictively, to make the victim as uncomfortable as possible before cruel execution.
3. Totalitarian governments are fearful of exposure. Witness the Olympics, where much of China's pollution machine was shut down to improve air quality during the Olympics. But only during the Olympics, as the people themselves don't deserve good air quality standards, per the government. Oh, by the way, we never did see proper documentation of half of their gymnastics team being of proper age.
4. I have an uncle (in-law) who came to America to go to MIT. On return to China to work, was immediately imprisoned for treasonous acts. The prisons are very simple. Make them as far away as possible and make the prisoners subsist on what they grow. They can escape. The guards might even take pot shots at them. But they could run for a week and not get anywhere. Death from exposure is inevitable.
5. Many of China's rivers are filled with human waste, as their values for manufacturing pollution differ little from their sense of hygiene and sanitation.
6. "Collateral damage" from natural disasters means less people to deal with. Safety for people in areas prone to these is of little concern. Witness the thwarting of the media in reporting on the earthquake that killed scores of children in school. Floods and typhoons also factor in.
Oh yes, the world is sleeping with the Devil when it comes to China. And with much of the world's _finite_ wealth going there, their oppressive ways might just extend past their citizens, to the rest of the world.
All of these are comments about the government only.
1. Using prisoners and the RELATIVES of prisoners (who did no wrong) as human shields during uprisings. These uprisings occur today, as evidenced by the recent Uigher activity.
2. Between Hong Kong and China, there are several bodies of water. Several of my close relatives tell of prisoners beaten and tortured, then showing up in HK waters. These bodies are often bound extremely constrictively, to make the victim as uncomfortable as possible before cruel execution.
3. Totalitarian governments are fearful of exposure. Witness the Olympics, where much of China's pollution machine was shut down to improve air quality during the Olympics. But only during the Olympics, as the people themselves don't deserve good air quality standards, per the government. Oh, by the way, we never did see proper documentation of half of their gymnastics team being of proper age.
4. I have an uncle (in-law) who came to America to go to MIT. On return to China to work, was immediately imprisoned for treasonous acts. The prisons are very simple. Make them as far away as possible and make the prisoners subsist on what they grow. They can escape. The guards might even take pot shots at them. But they could run for a week and not get anywhere. Death from exposure is inevitable.
5. Many of China's rivers are filled with human waste, as their values for manufacturing pollution differ little from their sense of hygiene and sanitation.
6. "Collateral damage" from natural disasters means less people to deal with. Safety for people in areas prone to these is of little concern. Witness the thwarting of the media in reporting on the earthquake that killed scores of children in school. Floods and typhoons also factor in.
Oh yes, the world is sleeping with the Devil when it comes to China. And with much of the world's _finite_ wealth going there, their oppressive ways might just extend past their citizens, to the rest of the world.
All of these are comments about the government only.
Kammerdiner
Well-known member
For the foreseeable future, consumption will be a moral issue. It is a bit self-serving to suggest that money and free markets will eventually liberate the Chinese people, especially when you're gobbling up Chin bins (I like that neologism myself), while the Chinese people and environment are paying a horrendous price for it.
It's a bit like saying that slavery in America and the wholesale destruction of American forests was just capitalist growing pains, a necessary stage in the cycle of economic development. After all, you might say, the slaves were eventually freed, the forests eventually recovered, and now we all live in the country with three pairs of Zens for less than the price of a single alpha! Well, God Bless America.
I have thought about getting a Zen myself, and the fact is I own a Chinese bin already. But when I think of the Zen, I also think of this: when you buy an alpha you know that nothing toxic went out the factory's back door into the nearest river, and you know the folks who designed and put the thing together can probably support their families and live without too much fear of environment-related cancers.
There is no economic necessity for the Chinese to treat their workers like slaves and destroy their environment. It's a business decision, and something we should all be cognizant of while we ponder yet another, and let's face it largely unnecessary, purchase.
I'm always amazed when the Sierra Club (and plenty of others) hit me up for more money with the promise of a cheap Chinese-made rucksack or whatever in return. You can't have your environment and eat it too.
Mark
It's a bit like saying that slavery in America and the wholesale destruction of American forests was just capitalist growing pains, a necessary stage in the cycle of economic development. After all, you might say, the slaves were eventually freed, the forests eventually recovered, and now we all live in the country with three pairs of Zens for less than the price of a single alpha! Well, God Bless America.
I have thought about getting a Zen myself, and the fact is I own a Chinese bin already. But when I think of the Zen, I also think of this: when you buy an alpha you know that nothing toxic went out the factory's back door into the nearest river, and you know the folks who designed and put the thing together can probably support their families and live without too much fear of environment-related cancers.
There is no economic necessity for the Chinese to treat their workers like slaves and destroy their environment. It's a business decision, and something we should all be cognizant of while we ponder yet another, and let's face it largely unnecessary, purchase.
I'm always amazed when the Sierra Club (and plenty of others) hit me up for more money with the promise of a cheap Chinese-made rucksack or whatever in return. You can't have your environment and eat it too.
Mark
John M Robinson
Well-known member
Jeeze CL,
I read a lot of what you write and usually agree with you, but it seems to me that you are making a lot of assumptions that may or may not be true. I just bought a used, made in Japan double barrel shotgun that was considered a cheap alternative to US and Belgium made guns back when it was made in 1969. It cost $225.00 new and I got it for a steal at $1,100.00. Who knows how Zen rays will be perceived in the next few decades, they could be out of business in a few years, they could morph into a cheap Tasco- Wallmart brand or they could put all of their focus and resourses into becoming the best optical company in the world.
You also assume that Zen doesn't have a US based R&D department. I don't know if they do or don't, but the product they have offered up to date sure seems well designed. Maybe they just reverse engineered Swaro or Zeiss, I don't know and neither do you. As a guy who used to work in the R&D department of a US based manufacturing company that fairly rapidly had to move production to Asia, or go out of business, I can appreciate the delema the American founder of Zen Ray was in, when he dreamed up a business plan for offering the highest quality optics at an affordable price. What would you do when the Japanese played hardball or didn't play at all? Give up your idea, or find some one, somewhere that would work with you?
Now I'm a big fan of Leica, I own or have owned a Leitz 7x35, Leica CRF 900 and my 8x42 Ultravids, I also like my Nikon SEs, but I wouldn't hold my nose if somebody offered me a 7x36 Zen Ray.
One last point, those of us on this forum would be considered mentally ill by the general public if they knew how much money we spend on binoculars, there are many, perhaps the majority of outdoor enthusiast who couldn't and wouldn't dream of spending the cost of a used car on a pair of binoculars. These Zen Rays, even if they are worthless in five years (which I doubt), are a wonderful deal for the up and coming birder who's previous choice was optically crappy, cheap Chinese optics or nothing. Sorry for my rant, but I really don't think you would be throwing your money away by buying the Zen Rays. I would hate to see them put any of the other ("good") optical companies out of business, my take is that this new competition could tweak S, L or Z into being slightly more competetive.
John
kristoffer
Used Register
Yes, I know that it is impossible to avoid buying stuff made in China. Even if the "made in" label says otherwise, it is a big probabilty that the material might originate in China.
My opening statement in this thread was just discussion topics, not necessarily what I personaly belive. I had noticed that this topic was present in a lot of other threads and therefor I feel the need of having this discussion here rather then elsewhere.
One thing I find interesting is that Nikon Monarchs, some (all?) of Vortex bins and many many more are also made in China with the RD in USA or Japan, just like Zen. They, however, have dodged this bullet and is not associated with China, at this forum atleast.
Really?
I didnt know that!
I read again my post... sorry if I said in a way that made you feel angry about my comment!
There's a good example about the interesting thing you found: Macbooks (the Apple's notebooks).
Many people wants them, many people desire them. But look... they are made in China and NO ONE complains about it!
It seems that if a BIG company has its products made in China, no one really cares. The products are excelent, anyway.
But if a small or new company has its products made in China, everyone complains about the "China quality control".
Isnt that weird?
Nikon Monarch is made in China. They may even share the same optics as Vixen or other brands, just with different rubber cover and label.
found a link in another forum.
http://www.metwhich.com/English/Index.asp
found a link in another forum.
http://www.metwhich.com/English/Index.asp
kristoffer
Used Register
No, don´t worry, not angry at all 
Just wanted to make sure what the purpose of the thread is.
Just wanted to make sure what the purpose of the thread is.
kristoffer
Used Register
Yes, so start to bash Nikon too. Or perhaps not CLRobles, you love the SE? (From the company who produce some stuff in China).
HoosierGuy
Well-known member
There's a Hawke Frontier ED 8x43 discussion on the "other" forum. Some one posted picks of the case. It looks very similar to the case that came with my Zen-Ray's. It's obvious to me the case came from the same factory. I saw a Promaster at the mall a few months ago. Focus knob cap looks like the cap on my Zen-Ray. Ugh, as big as China is only one factory is able to make binoculars? Disappointing.
jaymoynihan
Corvus brachyrhynchos watcher
I just started reading this thread, and will have to do so in pieces.
Anyway, it will probably seem pedantic but;
It is not uncommon for countries to call themselves something they are not.
The People's Republic of China refers to itself as "communist" but it is not.
Communism is a variant of socialism, and is therefore an economic concept, not a description of government or rule, technically, in and of itself.
Given their behavior/current practices, they are also not economically "communist", they are a relatively new form of capitalism.
Some would call it state capitalism, state corporatism, what ever. History will probably need more temporal distance to assign a good name for their economic form.
As far as "government" goes, I do think totalitarian would suffice, though given the policy and ownership melding there, it possibly could be simply (technically) be referred to as fascist, in the classic sense of the word. :t:
spitfiretriple
Well-known member
Statism
Someone, I think it may have been Jim Rogers, coined the word, "statist". It describes a system of government where the government has, and wields, far too much power. I will concede that these days it's probably a better word to describe China than "communist".
Chinese wages may seem low by our standards, but let's remember: no-one is forced to work in a Chinese binocular factory. Or any other factory. They go to work in the factory because the conditions and pay are better than the paddy fields. In Britain we look back in pity on the poor poor people who worked in the factories and down the mines, while quite envying the romantic life of the farm worker. We are kidding ourselves. In Victorian Britain people left the land in their millions because they could make a better life for themselves in the city. China is no different.
As for allegations of torture and illegal killing, well, let's be careful. China is not the only country kidnapping people and detaining them illegally... Nor is China the only country regularly killing innocent people.
As for allegations of pollution, well as I understand it (and I'm happy to be corrected by someone in possession of facts) the average Chinese person produces a lot less pollution than the average westerner.
Let's be careful throwing stones; most of us on here live in a greenhouse. (US: glasshouse?)
Someone, I think it may have been Jim Rogers, coined the word, "statist". It describes a system of government where the government has, and wields, far too much power. I will concede that these days it's probably a better word to describe China than "communist".
Well, on the face of it, that's a shocking statistic. But how many of us know how much coal mining goes on in China? I checked the figures. Different sources have different numbers, but China is currently mining around half the world's coal. Should we really therefore be surprised that so many coal mining deaths happen in China? Especially when you factor in the inevitably lower experience levels, and lower safety standards of a developing economy, compared to the next biggest producer, the US, with all its automation. Or the third producer, Australia. Furthermore, most coal mining in China is not open-cast (surface) mining but deep mining. It is inherently more dangerous.
Chinese wages may seem low by our standards, but let's remember: no-one is forced to work in a Chinese binocular factory. Or any other factory. They go to work in the factory because the conditions and pay are better than the paddy fields. In Britain we look back in pity on the poor poor people who worked in the factories and down the mines, while quite envying the romantic life of the farm worker. We are kidding ourselves. In Victorian Britain people left the land in their millions because they could make a better life for themselves in the city. China is no different.
As for allegations of torture and illegal killing, well, let's be careful. China is not the only country kidnapping people and detaining them illegally... Nor is China the only country regularly killing innocent people.
As for allegations of pollution, well as I understand it (and I'm happy to be corrected by someone in possession of facts) the average Chinese person produces a lot less pollution than the average westerner.
Let's be careful throwing stones; most of us on here live in a greenhouse. (US: glasshouse?)
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kristoffer
Used Register
Sorry, not really. As you see their emissions increase rapidly, and soon they will pass us in Sweden, and they are 165 times our population.
Carbon dioxide emissions (ton) per capita
2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
Sweden 5.7, 6.4, 6.1, 6, 5.7, 5.6
China 2.7, 2.9, 3.4, 3.9, 4.3, 4.6
Source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/carbondioxide.html
Carbon dioxide emissions (ton) per capita
2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
Sweden 5.7, 6.4, 6.1, 6, 5.7, 5.6
China 2.7, 2.9, 3.4, 3.9, 4.3, 4.6
Source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/carbondioxide.html
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spitfiretriple
Well-known member
Fair enough, you're Swedish, but I didn't say the average Swede, I said the average westerner. I suspect you got your figures the same place I did
China is a long, long way down that list. 96th place!
Okay, China may be moving up the list fast, fair enough, it's industrialising from a peasant economy. But I suggest it will be a long long time before we can justifiably justify(!) buying binoculars elsewhere because of concerns over Chinese pollution.
China is a long, long way down that list. 96th place!
Okay, China may be moving up the list fast, fair enough, it's industrialising from a peasant economy. But I suggest it will be a long long time before we can justifiably justify(!) buying binoculars elsewhere because of concerns over Chinese pollution.
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jaymoynihan
Corvus brachyrhynchos watcher
Interesting thread......a few comments.
As others have said, it is very hard to avoid products made in the PRC. Some have tried and written articles about it. I think there is at least one book on the subject.
It is also very hard not to contribute to the economic well being of PRC as a fascist state, since with the extremely complex inter-lockings of capital markets, materials/commodities markets etc., just about any large company now has some form of relationship with them.
This subject comes up often in the online astronomy forums, such as Cloudynights. PRC companies have invaded that hobby equipment area also. I bought my first apochromatic refractor (Orion 80mm ED) a number of years ago. It was made in the PRC. It also showcased how far commercial optical fabrication had advanced there.
Re "innovation". I guess i do not see that as a Rimcultures v Eurocultures thing. In binoculars for example, the last to "innovations i can think of where phase coating for roofs (Zeiss 1987), and perhaps the open barrell design (Swarvoski). ED or APO-ish glass is not something new, it being a holy grail in astronomy for years (Takahashi then many others...). The first "ED" bino was I think Celestron, with the 9.5x44 model in the late 1980's. It was made in Japan.
The most important aspect for quality (assuming the entire instrument is not made "in house", which does not happen anymore i think) is what does the name manufacturer spec for parts order, and what tolerances are contracted for? Those can probably be met now in any industrialized country.
Also, the place of origin question is complicated by parts gathered from one or more places, and assembled in another place. The later is the made in X label.
As far as binos go, (and please feel free to correct me, this is based only on my casual/memory)
Assembled in U.S.: Higher end Leupolds.
Literally made in Japan: Swift Eaglets & Audubons. Maybe Kowa.
Assembled in Japan: Nikon, possibly Kowa.
Made in Europe. Not terribly familiar with all the euro brands. The big three do not do everything "in house" anymore. Zeiss has Schott (spelling?) glass of course, but Schott contracts with Japan & Taiwan i have heard in the astro and camera world, so who knows. Swaro has its own glass foundry if i remember correctly, with their main gig being fine cyrstal.
Safe to say, Assembled in Europe or Canada (some Leica):
Zeiss, Leica, Swarovski.
Another wild card is the Taiwanese optics industry which has quite an under the radar business and high quality. Most of their product is assembled elsewhere into finished optical instruments.
Complicating things furture is sometimes the optical elements come into the PRC, where they are assembled.
As others have said, it is very hard to avoid products made in the PRC. Some have tried and written articles about it. I think there is at least one book on the subject.
It is also very hard not to contribute to the economic well being of PRC as a fascist state, since with the extremely complex inter-lockings of capital markets, materials/commodities markets etc., just about any large company now has some form of relationship with them.
This subject comes up often in the online astronomy forums, such as Cloudynights. PRC companies have invaded that hobby equipment area also. I bought my first apochromatic refractor (Orion 80mm ED) a number of years ago. It was made in the PRC. It also showcased how far commercial optical fabrication had advanced there.
Re "innovation". I guess i do not see that as a Rimcultures v Eurocultures thing. In binoculars for example, the last to "innovations i can think of where phase coating for roofs (Zeiss 1987), and perhaps the open barrell design (Swarvoski). ED or APO-ish glass is not something new, it being a holy grail in astronomy for years (Takahashi then many others...). The first "ED" bino was I think Celestron, with the 9.5x44 model in the late 1980's. It was made in Japan.
The most important aspect for quality (assuming the entire instrument is not made "in house", which does not happen anymore i think) is what does the name manufacturer spec for parts order, and what tolerances are contracted for? Those can probably be met now in any industrialized country.
Also, the place of origin question is complicated by parts gathered from one or more places, and assembled in another place. The later is the made in X label.
As far as binos go, (and please feel free to correct me, this is based only on my casual/memory)
Assembled in U.S.: Higher end Leupolds.
Literally made in Japan: Swift Eaglets & Audubons. Maybe Kowa.
Assembled in Japan: Nikon, possibly Kowa.
Made in Europe. Not terribly familiar with all the euro brands. The big three do not do everything "in house" anymore. Zeiss has Schott (spelling?) glass of course, but Schott contracts with Japan & Taiwan i have heard in the astro and camera world, so who knows. Swaro has its own glass foundry if i remember correctly, with their main gig being fine cyrstal.
Safe to say, Assembled in Europe or Canada (some Leica):
Zeiss, Leica, Swarovski.
Another wild card is the Taiwanese optics industry which has quite an under the radar business and high quality. Most of their product is assembled elsewhere into finished optical instruments.
Complicating things furture is sometimes the optical elements come into the PRC, where they are assembled.
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falcondude
Well-known member
If we don't have high quality binoculars from China, like Hawke Froniter, Zen ED, RSPB HD, Nikon Monarch X, or Vortex/Eagle Optics, 99% of people will be stuck with the real junk coming out of that country, while the other 1% probably will pay extra 20-50% more due to the monopoly from German/Austrian binos without competition to keep price in check.
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