Canon Restrictive Practice-Do You Agree? (1 Viewer)

[baillieswells]

Canon have recently issued a directive about importing Canon equipment into the European Economic Area (see http://www.canon.co.uk/about_us/news/corporate_releases/2006_trademark_infringement.asp). They are typically targetting what they call grey imports from the USA and Hong Kong. Do you think Canon have a right to prevent people from buying from wherever is cheapest? What about individuals buying Canon equipment, say an extra lens, while on holiday in say the USA? Should Canon be able to dishonour the guarantee? We all know that many items not only cameras, but computers, clothes, even cars are more expensive in 'rip-off' Britain.

What do forum members think think?

 

[compa]

You need to be careful about WHICH Canon you are speaking about. The Canon here in the US wants to sell all of the lenses and bodies it can to anyone, anywhere. It helps their profit margins. The Canon of Japan also wants to sell lenses through all of its divisions throughout the world.

The Canon in the UK wants to sell lenses there of course. If they don't sell lenses, it means they lose their jobs. So it seems rather natural that they try to control the flow of Canon product into the country by restricting warranty work. That is also done by the government with other products by means of taxes - it is what helps to provide jobs for your countrymen - it happens everywhere including the US.

Canon here in the US also has a policy on grey market lenses. And it isn't just Canon - Nikon USA also has restrictions on grey market purchases.

 

[postcardcv]

Personally I think that Canon are right to restrict the flow of grey imports and to everythink they can to stop them.

While there seems to be an advantage to the consumer to buy these cheaper grey imports there are problems in the long run.

You think you might want a lens you'd want to try it, so you visit your local camera shop and try it out. You decide it's just the lens for you, but know you can save £1-200 by buying a grey import online, so you go home and order your lens. The lens arrives without any problem and you never have any problems with it... however this happens a lot and soon your local camera shop is struggling to make ends meet and ends up closing. The next time you want a new lens you can't try it out, so have to risk buying a lens unseen.

This might seem a bit extreme, but it does happen - small retailers are already struggling to contend with the prices offered by the big online retailers - but there is no way of competing with the prices of grey imports...

 

[Gwynn]

I would agree with postcardcv on this, there isn't one "good" camera shop near me out here so I can't try out anything before buying so I think it is worth doing all you can to keep the ones you have got!!

"We all know that many items not only cameras, but computers, clothes, even cars are more expensive in 'rip-off' Britain." Do we! I can assure that a lot things aren't cheeper in a lot of europe! so much so that I have bought a few thing (camera, optics etc) when I have been back in the UK as they are much cheeper there!! and you really don't want to know how much car insurance is out here!!!!

Gwynn

 

[Tannin]

Canon UK are perfectly entitled to decline to spend money servicing products that they did not sell. Why should they subsidise other organisations, such as Canon USA or Nikon UK, or Olympus Japan.

(Huh? Who said Canon UK should have to provide free service for Nikon gear? That's stupid! Well, yes, but from their point of viw it is exactly as stupid as expecting them to subsidise Canon USA - no more, and no less.)

But legal action? I'm inclined to view that with consideranble suspicion. It's a rather different question.

 

[baillieswells]

Canon UK are perfectly entitled to decline to spend money servicing products that they did not sell. Why should they subsidise other organisations, such as Canon USA or Nikon UK, or Olympus Japan.

(Huh? Who said Canon UK should have to provide free service for Nikon gear? That's stupid! Well, yes, but from their point of viw it is exactly as stupid as expecting them to subsidise Canon USA - no more, and no less.)

But legal action? I'm inclined to view that with consideranble suspicion. It's a rather different question.

I am aware of Canon's arguments and the points made above. However lenses made in Japan are the same, and Canon lenses whether bought in the USA or Europe have guarantees which at the moment are valid worldwide. My point is, Canon's recommended prices for the same lenses are higher in the UK than in the USA. A comparable selling price can be obtained from the Amazon UK web-site and the Amazon US website. (I have calculated UK prices without VAT (sales tax). Canon EF USM 70-200mm f4 L lens. Amazon UK £536 (eqivalent to US $922),
Amazon USA US $585. (equivalent to £340). (I have used today's exchange rate of $1.72/£1 UK)

 

[Tannin]

That's a little misleading, baillieswells. Yup, for reasons unknown to me (but ones I certainly won't argue with) Canon lenses warranties are worldwide. But note that their camera warranties are not. I own two 20Ds. One of them I bought here in Australia through my local retailer, and if it needs service under warranty, Canon Australia will look after it. But I bought the other one through a grey market importer and Canon Australia will not service it. (Which is fair enough.) According to my supplier (a very decent bloke, by the way) you usually get better service on the grey market camera: he lends you a replacement unit while it's away, and Canon USA's service team has a much faster turn-around than Canon Australia can manage.

Touch wood, I haven't had to put this to the test, but it rings true to me.

Now, what about the transfer pricing you mention? That is an issue we meet here in Oz too, and I am deeply suspicious of it. This is the main reason why I question Canon EU's legal action: it looks very like an attempt to get away with higher prices in the EU market to me. Here in Oz, they would have to be very careful not to get into trouble with the fair trading authorities doing that sort of thing.

But as regards not servicing gear not bought from them, that is perfectly OK. Hell, if you buy a computer from my competitor down the road and then bring it to me expecting free warranty work on it ... not a chance!

 

[baillieswells]

That's a little misleading, baillieswells. Yup, for reasons unknown to me (but ones I certainly won't argue with) Canon lenses warranties are worldwide. But note that their camera warranties are not. I own two 20Ds. One of them I bought here in Australia through my local retailer, and if it needs service under warranty, Canon Australia will look after it. But I bought the other one through a grey market importer and Canon Australia will not service it. (Which is fair enough.) According to my supplier (a very decent bloke, by the way) you usually get better service on the grey market camera: he lends you a replacement unit while it's away, and Canon USA's service team has a much faster turn-around than Canon Australia can manage.

Touch wood, I haven't had to put this to the test, but it rings true to me.

Now, what about the transfer pricing you mention? That is an issue we meet here in Oz too, and I am deeply suspicious of it. This is the main reason why I question Canon EU's legal action: it looks very like an attempt to get away with higher prices in the EU market to me. Here in Oz, they would have to be very careful not to get into trouble with the fair trading authorities doing that sort of thing.

But as regards not servicing gear not bought from them, that is perfectly OK. Hell, if you buy a computer from my competitor down the road and then bring it to me expecting free warranty work on it ... not a chance!

Yes but Canon is Canon throughout the world. Not the same as the retailer down the street.

 

[pete schofield]

I am a little confused here, but then I am getting on. I cannot see why it should matter to Canon, surely they sell their lenses etc to retail outlets wherever they may be at a given price.

To my way of thinking it is then where the differences start to show in the different countries tax implementation. And as we all know in the UK we get ripped off.

Or am I missing the point here.

Pete

 

[AndyC]

I would have thought that Canon will try to set the highest price they think the market will stand. If we in the UK still buy the items when they are twice the price of the rest of the world, then its more fool us. If we refuse to buy at the set price, then the price will come down to level that we will buy at.(Does that make sense?)

Its not only high priced goods that are subject to differential pricing. My local Tesco's promises that its petrol will match the cheapest in the local area. There doesn't seem to be much competition in my local area, as they sell for 3p a litre cheaper at another branch about 12 miles away.

 

[Pinewood]

I am a little confused here, but then I am getting on. I cannot see why it should matter to Canon, surely they sell their lenses etc to retail outlets wherever they may be at a given price.

To my way of thinking it is then where the differences start to show in the different countries tax implementation. And as we all know in the UK we get ripped off.

Or am I missing the point here.

Pete

.

Yes but Canon is Canon throughout the world. Not the same as the retailer down the street

.
Pete and Baillies,
The Canon distributor in the UK may not be the same business as Canon, Japan. The distributor, who may be a subsidiary, an independent or a joint venture, has a separate existence. The distributor sets up the service facility and sets the terms of the guarantee.
I am unfamiliar with Canon, UK, but Zeiss USA and Leica USA have their own guarantees which are better than the worldwide guarantee offered in Germany. Marketing in the USA has required Leica to offer a "no fault" guarantee and Zeiss to offer a lifetime, transferable guarantee. Additionally, the cost of marketing is born by the local distributor, who should be able to recover his expenses in sales.
Incidentally, a gray market exists in the USA for Swarovski binoculars.
Still, I can understand that comparing USA and UK prices might make some British rather infuriated. How much is due to an economically inefficient retailing structure?

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :scribe:

 

[pete schofield]

.
.
Pete and Baillies,
The Canon distributor in the UK may not be the same business as Canon, Japan. The distributor, who may be a subsidiary, an independent or a joint venture, has a separate existence. The distributor sets up the service facility and sets the terms of the guarantee.
I am unfamiliar with Canon, UK, but Zeiss USA and Leica USA have their own guarantees which are better than the worldwide guarantee offered in Germany. Marketing in the USA has required Leica to offer a "no fault" guarantee and Zeiss to offer a lifetime, transferable guarantee. Additionally, the cost of marketing is born by the local distributor, who should be able to recover his expenses in sales.
Incidentally, a gray market exists in the USA for Swarovski binoculars.
Still, I can understand that comparing USA and UK prices might make some British rather infuriated. How much is due to an economically inefficient retailing structure?

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :scribe:

The point I was trying to make is Do Canon the manufacturer sell at a given price i.e. Canon ef teleconverter from the factory X amount of yen to their distributors wherever they are.

I will try to put it another way item 1 from manufaturer cost X. Is this the same cost to UK, USA etc. Then it is up to the distributor to start marking up.

If the above is true then we are being ripped off, or at least allowing it to be so.

Pete

 

[Pinewood]

The point I was trying to make is Do Canon the manufacturer sell at a given price i.e. Canon ef teleconverter from the factory X amount of yen to their distributors wherever they are.

I will try to put it another way item 1 from manufaturer cost X. Is this the same cost to UK, USA etc. Then it is up to the distributor to start marking up.

If the above is true then we are being ripped off, or at least allowing it to be so.

Pete

Pete,
I have no idea what price is set by Canon to its distributors. Clearly, Canon expects to ship more to the USA of any item as the market is much larger. They may set the price to the USA distributor at a lower price because of the volume.
I believe that UK residents may be the victims of an inefficient retailing system which increases prices as much as VAT does. You may call that being "ripped off."

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood

 

[pete schofield]

Hi Arthur all points noted. I guess unless we can get the retailers say either side of the pond to come clean then we will never know.

To get back to the original thread, I cannot see what Canon's problem is. To my way of thinking as long as they can ship enough units to make a profit, stay in business, what difference is it going to make where we buy there goods.

Having said that, I am about to buy a teleconverter. Which I will by in the UK simply because should there be a problem with it, it is far easier to send back locally. Also having bought from the States and Canada, once the import duty is tacked on in this country the differences are not that much.

Ah well Ces'r le vie

Pete

 

[baillieswells]

Hi Arthur all points noted. I guess unless we can get the retailers say either side of the pond to come clean then we will never know.

To get back to the original thread, I cannot see what Canon's problem is. To my way of thinking as long as they can ship enough units to make a profit, stay in business, what difference is it going to make where we buy there goods.

Having said that, I am about to buy a teleconverter. Which I will by in the UK simply because should there be a problem with it, it is far easier to send back locally. Also having bought from the States and Canada, once the import duty is tacked on in this country the differences are not that much.

Ah well Ces'r le vie

Pete

Canon set what is known as the recommended retail price in the UK. If dealers sell too much below this Canon will refuse to supply them.If a dealer starts importing Canon items from cheaper countries and still make a profit at a lower price Canon will do everything they can to stop the trade.

 

[Pavel_D]

What about the case where you live in a county where you make 20 dollars and hour and someone else lives in a country where the same job pays 5 dollars and hour. The rent on a bussiness property in the first country is 400 dollars a week and in the second county it is 100 dollars a day. The person in country a is going to pay 500 dollars for lens "A" and the person in the second country is going to pay 125 for the lens. That sounds fair to me - assuming it's manufactured in a country where they can make a profit at making it and selling it for 125.
This of course is crude and oversimplified but I think it makes the point.
You have to take more into consideration. Perhaps the guy selling you the lens in britain has to pay higher wages, or provide better benefits or perhaps pay higher tax for you who may get the benefit of services from that higher tax. ( well I lived in canada where I payed enormous taxes - and did't get much for it ... but you know what I'm trying to say) There are costs involved. Every regulation that protects someone tends to cost something ... it all adds up to higher costs of living.

Perhaps Canon gets taxed for doing biz in the UK at a far higher cost then it does for operating in the US or the tariffs may be different.

I wonder what canon's pricing is in China or Mexico?

 

[graham catley]

makes little sense in the global market regime which we are told exists if a worldwide gaurantee does not apply worldwide to me anyway---from what I have heard from people who have used the Canon repair site in the Uk their service is slower than slow and in 50% of cases items have not been repaired properly and often have to go back twice plus they charge a small fortune once the nominal 1 year gaurantee runs out--Britain delcines to enforce the 2 year gaurantee which is universal through the EU so again we are being done by the government as well as multi-national companies---I recently bought a cheaper Canon lens from a well known source as it was considerably cheaper and also available while UK distributors were quoting delays of 4-6 weeks in delivery---so Canon UK must expect what they get--poor service, poor dealer supplies and high prices would send most firms to the wall through consumer choice--here we have a monopoly which we are told does not exist--