Copyright of optical system? Why no replicas of high grade binos? (3 Viewers)

[Swedpat]

The optical system in binoculars is easily visible in images and in cut through samples. And it's just to x-ray the tube to see how the optical system is designed.
Therefore, it should be easy for any manufacturer to copy any binocular they want. Is the exact optical design copyrightable? And if so: how closely is it permissible to imitate?
And why do we not see chinese replicas of the european and japanese high grade models, when luxuary watches of all brands are replicated?
I think it should have been juridical processes about this. Or?

 

[Mike Crawley]

I have no specific knowledge in this area but here are a couple of (to me) logical assumptions

I assume that the glass needed to make the eyepiece and objective lenses is difficult to produce to the required quality.
Presumably the same would apply for the prisms required ?
Could the investment required be prohibitive ?
Probably enough to stop copies being made cheaper than the major manufacturers

Clearly, anyone could make a copy of a pair of "alpha" binoculars but the optical differences would be straightforward to detect.

 

[pbjosh]

I think that for instance Kamakura could source any glass they’d like and could do just this. But they would probably rather not lose the big 4 as potential customers.

Other manufacturers could presumably source most of the glass but may or may be able to exactly duplicate.

And it’s not just the optical design that makes high end bins demand a high price tag. It is also manufacturing tolerance / quality, QC, and perhaps most importantly, the brand that stands behind it.

 

[Maljunulo]

I think there’s a bit more to it than “a prism here, a bi-convex lens there” and so on.

Glass formulas, refractive indices, dispersion, and more are all part of the design of an optical train.

These cannot be inferred from x-rays or photos of cut open binoculars.

 

[Binocollector]

So far I only saw copies of cheaper models, like the Chinese "Baigish" fake they sell on aliexpress. I accidentally bought one of those used on ebay thinking it is the real deal.
Fun fact -- it's actually pretty good but even compared to the original, rather cheap Komz 8x30, the fake has more plastic, cheaper build and more reflections around the exit pupil. But it is rather bright, sharp and has a slightly larger FoV.
I'd think when copying an original as good as possible, the price will also reach almost the same height because of the factors mentioned, like glass quality, etc.
If we knew what the margins are, we could make an educated guess.
As for the watch comparison -- I collect watches since 2007 and I'd say it's quite different from copying a bino.
For most older high-end watches, there have been decent copies of the movements for years, since the tech is so old that often they aren't even protected anymore and made by dozens of companies already. So you take a Chinese legal copy of a movement, like an ETA2824, which is no longer protected, and many older Omegas for example, used that movement or the ETA2892. Put some polishing or jeweling on the movement, add a copied case, dial and hands (all of those are a dime a dozen on aliexpress) and the fake is complete. Not that much to it. Reverse-engineering a high-end bino and building it to the same performance might be a different matter considering that good glass isn't cheap and only made by a handful of companies, while a copied watch-movement costs around 10€/$ if you buy enough of them at once.

 

[Binastro]

Optical designs are copyright, but the Chinese and for that matter the Soviets didn't care.
The actual copyright might tend to use specs at the end of tolerances to confuse copiers.

However, Zeiss respected the Russar Russian wide angle lens copyright and made their own.

China has no regard for copyright of anything and also produce any fake specs they can think of.

60x60, 80x80, 900x25, 700x25, 260x160 and other garbage.

Worse are the fake medicines, milk with anti freeze etc. etc.

Yet, when I sold Chinese goods in the 1960s they were scrupulously honest.
As were the Czechs.

There are fake Polish cameras and fake British art glassware.
Italy fakes art products.
In fact most countries produce fakes, but not to the extent of the Chinese.

Chinese astro scopes are rather good, especially considering the price.

Dollond copyrighted the achromat, even though he didn't invent it.

Zeiss glass types were British given freely without copyright, although Abbe waited about ten years to make them.

Regards,
B.

 

[Patudo]

There is probably not the market for things like the 6x42 Sard or 8x60 Zeiss U-boat to justify the cost of production. Much of their appeal is the fact that they are from the WW2 era - remove the swastika and Nazi eagle from a WW2 German binocular that has one and its value plummets. A copy, even a very good one, made in Kunming or wherever would simply not have the same appeal. Leaving that aside, the Sard weighs 1.715 kg and the Zeiss U-boat apparently weighs six pounds. Even if lighter materials were used they'd still be large and bulky. All things considered I can't see enough people actually buying them to make the cost of production worth the gamble - I might be wrong, but the chaps in the PRC have done plenty of research and know their market, I'm sure.

 

[Swedpat]

Thank you all for replies!

I know there are some fake binoculars out there. A work mate to me bought a "Pentax" on a holiday trip in a foreign country. When she showed me the binocular I could instantly see that it was a fake. So cheap made and very poor optics, nothing close to the quality of even the budget models from the known japanese brands.

I am into wristwatches too, and taking in consider the fact that the chinese replicate not only luxuary but every watch model(even Casio retro and G-shocks) who sell in big scale, I wondered about why I have never read about fake Zeiss Flourite and Swarovski SLC.

The best Rolex and Omega replicas are so close to the original that it requires a knowledgeable watchmaker with a lupe to reveal it's a fake.
But if I understand it right, it's more difficult to make a good replica of a high grade binocular.
The precision of the manufacturing of the lenses and prisms is extremely high. Probably much higher than the precision of watch parts. And there are several more matters included in a binocular.
Apart from that, despite the mobilphone, more people own a wristwatch than those who own a binocular. Luxuary watches are in a much higher level a status item than high grade binoculars are. So this means it's a much bigger market for fake watches than for fake binoculars.
As I understand it.

 

[Binastro]

The Sard and Zeiss 8x60 might cost £15,000 new nowadays.

Even a good Chinese copy might cost £6,000.

How many are they going to sell?

However, the Chinese buy old British optics for £30,000 that cost £20 secondhand in the U.K.
Also more common examples that cost £5 go for £15,000 to £25,000.

Regards,
B.

 

[[email protected]]

Do you really think the Chinese could copy a Swarovski NL or Zeiss SF, and it would even be close to being the same? That would be like the Chinese trying to copy a Porsche or Ferrari. Something tells me it just wouldn't be the same as the real thing. A big reason I like Swarovski's and Zeiss is because of the way Austrian and German binoculars smell! Chinese stuff smells like formaldehyde.

Why Do Products Made In China Smell? – CMHI

www.cmhi.com.hk

 

[fazalmajid]

Binocular designs can certainly be patented. Copyright is not applicable, this is not content like a book, recording, movie or software.

 

[Trinovid]

The best Rolex and Omega replicas are so close to the original that it requires a knowledgeable watchmaker with a lupe to reveal it's a fake.

I was at my friend’s store when a customer brought in a watch to verify that it was a Rolex. He kept looking around inside and saying it looked good, but kept searching because something was bugging him, and he finally found a couple things off. It was so good actually that he was pretty impressed, and it’s a reminder for him all the time to be on his toes for the really well done fakes.

 

[Swedpat]

Do you really think the Chinese could copy a Swarovski NL or Zeiss SF, and it would even be close to being the same? That would be like the Chinese trying to copy a Porsche or Ferrari. Something tells me it just wouldn't be the same as the real thing. A big reason I like Swarovski's and Zeiss is because of the way Austrian and German binoculars smell! Chinese stuff smells like formaldehyde.

Why Do Products Made In China Smell? – CMHI

www.cmhi.com.hk

I guess nothing is impossible here. They can copy watches so very close to the original that even a knowledgeable watchmaker have hard to notice it. But yes: a binocular or a car is probably a step up in difficulty. But a Swarovski or Zeiss would probably be possible to copy to very close to the original. They just need the original and copy and measure every part of it.
There are probably millions of fake Rolexes around the world. The reason there are not fake Swaros is probably that it's not enough good market for it.

 

[Maljunulo]

Have they reached the point yet where there are more fake Rolexes than real ones?

It seems to me that when you get to that point you have really arrived.

 

[tehri]

Glass formulas, refractive indices, dispersion, and more are all part of the design of an optical train.

I didn't remember this technical term, 'Optical train'.... I really like it, a good source for the imagination !!!.... It could also be a good movie title from, let's say... Christopher Nolan !!...
I would really enjoy to see it !!! 😲 Ahaha !

 

[Swedpat]

Have they reached the point yet where there are more fake Rolexes than real ones?

It seems to me that when you get to that point you have really arrived.

That is indeed an interesting question!

 

[tenex]

Possibly optical design software has got so good by now that it's actually easier or works better to design your own binocular than to try to identify what glass types someone else has used or measure and make a precise enough copy of theirs.

Now brand "fakes" are a different question: why does no one put alpha names on other products? 50 years ago there were fake Leica cameras and Zeiss binoculars; now there really aren't, but there are still fake Rolexes...

 

[Maljunulo]

Its a pretty safe bet that a Rolex buyer or collector is either wealthy or extremely “comfortable”.

Not such a sure thing with binoculars.

Buying a $3,000 binocular is not quite the same as buying a $25,000 Rolex.

 

[[email protected]]

Its a pretty safe bet that a Rolex buyer or collector is either wealthy or extremely “comfortable”.

Not such a sure thing with binoculars.

Buying a $3,000 binocular is not quite the same as buying a $25,000 Rolex.

A Rolex buyer is probably wealthy to afford a $25,000 watch, but if you're clever in your choice of the type and style of Rolex you buy it can actually appreciate, and some people invest in watches the same way they invest in art and even things like rare sneakers.

There are some rare sneakers on eBay in excess of $150,000 and some have sold at auction for millions of dollars and people buy and collect them as an investment!

The secret is rarity. Usually because of the commonality of binoculars, even NL and SF binoculars are going to depreciate. That is one way the rich get richer. Fine art is one of the most popular investments for the wealthiest % of the population. There are huge profits to be made if you are wise in your purchases.

Is a Rolex Watch a Good Investment, and What Are The Best Models?

Looking to invest in a Rolex? Learn why Rolex watches are a good investment and discover the best models to invest in 2023.

www.theluxuryhut.com

 

[WJC]

The optical system in binoculars is easily visible in images and in cut through samples. And it's just to x-ray the tube to see how the optical system is designed.
Therefore, it should be easy for any manufacturer to copy any binocular they want. Is the exact optical design copyrightable? And if so: how closely is it permissible to imitate?
And why do we not see chinese replicas of the european and japanese high grade models, when luxuary watches of all brands are replicated?
I think it should have been juridical processes about this. Or?

Forget copyright, and start looking at the word patent.