County Louth (formerly Dundalk Bay) local patch. (31 Viewers)

[Peter Phillips]

Dunany Point looks good for a shrike but I don't think Woodchat or Red-backed have occured in Louth. I think there is a 19th century record of Great Grey Shrike from Beaulieu though!

TS

Hi Tom,

Thanks for that. There is a record of Great Grey Shrike from Feb (I think 1976) from Dunany Point. I though it was the only shrike record from Louth.

You dont have a reference for the Beulieu Shrike by any chance?

Peter

 

[Derek Watters]

Ivy

Hi all

Not directly a birding thread, but related none the less.
I've noted over the past number of years an increase in ivy on trees in the county. I believe at one stage farmers used to cut it back off the trees?
Anyway, my main point is that although it does give added protection and maybe more food supplies to our birds, in the longer term I believe it is detrimental to the trees. In some cases large mature trees that are over a century old appear to be strangled by ivy. Some people have said to me that the ivy grows on these dead trees - I myself wonder was it the ivy that infact killed the tree.
The reason I ask is simple. Our county has few enough large mature decideous trees. Yet everywhere I look I see these trees covered in ivy. My own belief is that the ivy is damaging the trees and if left uncontrolled, it will be beyond out lifetimes before new trees regrow to reach this mature stage. I visited Rathescar woods on Sunday and was pleasantly pleased with the varied and maturity of the woods there. However some areas are completely covered in ivy and appear to be less healthy that those not covered.
Perhaps someone more knowledagble than I in the Flora department, would let me know if my views are fantasy or not.
If my views are correct, I think it is an area we need to look at now, in order to rescue and preserve these fine trees for future generations of humans and birds!

Derek

 

[yew]

I am indeed very interested in reading your post. I noticed after 5 years of living here that my beautiful very large Ash tree at the bottom of garden was losing its leaves over a month before similar Ash trees in neighbouring gardens where the ivy had been removed. My father said it was strangling tree when I told him. I was concerned about getting rid of the ivy though because I have a lot of beautiful jenny wrens and Mistle thrushes and some birds I have yet to identify (have ordered good book mentioned here yesterday) as well as lots of commoner birds. I wondered were they nesting in the tree although couldnt see any nests except one well hidden in one of the hawthorn trees.
I decided to remove ivy from all main branches except one presently and to my relief discovered no nests disturbed as so hard to see. I had to buy a saw as ivy was wrapped around it as thick as a tree and it was a very hard job and had to leave most of it away up in tree just to die slowly and fall. The rain was feeding the ivy and not the tree so I believe definitely it would slowly kill trees. Anyway the good news I still have my Mistle thrushes walking about there near the fruit bushes and saw wren recently. Does anyone know if any birds do make nests in ivy?

 

[Tom Shevlin]

You dont have a reference for the Beulieu Shrike by any chance?

Peter

Try this:

Shot. Exhibited 09-12-1853. Ussher, R.J. and Warren, R (1900); The Birds of Ireland ; London.

TS

 

[Peter Phillips]

Does anyone know if any birds do make nests in ivy?

Thanks for that Tom.

I was once in your camp Derek, but not any more. I used to think that ivy looked terrible growing up trees and indeed when I saw dying trees with ivy on it I always blamed the ivy for the trees demise.

I am not sure what effect Ivy has on healty trees but they must surely compete for resources (water and food from the soil) but I dont think there is any evidence to suggest that they cause any damage by strangulation.

If you look at a dying tree with ivy growing up it, the Ivy often looks healthy and it appears that the Ivy is thriving to the detriment of the tree. I think this is just a case of observer bias! If you are looking for something to blame then often the easiest thing is to blame the most obvious suspect.

If you look at old trees in Demenses, you know the specimen trees on there own, you often see old and dying trees with no Ivy on them. I think that it a fact that most living trees have ivy on them, so most dying trees also have Ivy. I dont think that healthy trees have anything to fear from Ivy.

I have been told recently (Icant remember the source) that when measuring bird biodiversity in hedgerows one of the biggest factors contributing to that diversity was the PRESENCE of Ivy. I suppose thats not hard to believe as it provides evergreen cover, late nectar (september/october)for butterlies and all manner of creppie crawlies and a late crop of berries(march I think) useful for all those overwintering birds as the hawthorn berries run out.

As for nesting birds. Ivy is especially important for early nesting attempts. When there is little leaf cover in march and early april most hedgerow birds (outside gardens with evergreens) chose to nest in Ivy. I have done some nest watching for the BTO over the last couple of years and most early nesting attemps (especially Blackbird) is in Ivy. I suppose this makes sence as its one of our few native evergreens. Its also great for overwintering butterflies. Please leave Ivy alone! Its one of our best all round native wildlife plants.

Its also a fantastic , frost free, roost site for all manner of small birds in winter not to mention Fieldfare and Redwing.

 

[yew]

Please leave Ivy alone! Its one of our best all round native wildlife plants.

Its also a fantastic , frost free, roost site for all manner of small birds in winter not to mention Fieldfare and Redwing.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for answering and glad I left it all on one of the four main branches at least. There are lots of nests in old silver birch trees in front of the hospital. Quite often early in the morning or returning on split I see what I think maybe skylarks near the nests and trees or else meadow pipits. I am not sure which yet although they are different than my mistle thrushes as have small head for such a big enough bird. Any ideas if pipits or skylarks?

 

[j curtis]

Hi,
On the Ivy issue there seems to be plenty of research but there also seems to be little agreement on the issue. The following is one small section of an American article on the matter;
A positive word for English ivy in its native Europe was published by researcher Fernley-Whittingstall in 1992, described on the University of Minnesota website. "English ivy benefits a forest community by protecting the woodland floor from frost, supporting trees structurally, and providing a winter food source for ground foraging birds and mammals, such as starlings (Sturnus vulgaris) and elk (Cervus elaphus)." Two years later Wyman (1994) wrote that in certain areas of its native zone, Hedera helix is considered to be very weedy, an aggressive vine that virtually smothers most seedlings, breaks tree branches, and accelerates the death of trees. A third writer said in 1995, "the disagreement of the character and impact of H. helix has resulted in considerable debate regarding the destructive nature of ivy in its native habitat. (Elliott, 1995)."

So plenty of variable opinion.
Joe

 

[Peter Phillips]

Please leave Ivy alone! Its one of our best all round native wildlife plants.

Its also a fantastic , frost free, roost site for all manner of small birds in winter not to mention Fieldfare and Redwing.

Thanks for answering and glad I left it all on one of the four main branches at least. There are lots of nests in old silver birch trees in front of the hospital. Quite often early in the morning or returning on split I see what I think maybe skylarks near the nests and trees or else meadow pipits. I am not sure which yet although they are different than my mistle thrushes as have small head for such a big enough bird. Any ideas if pipits or skylarks?[/QUOTE]

Skylarks and Meadow pipits usually nest well away from trees- in open habitats like bogs and meadows.

Possibly a Song Thrush?

 

[Derek Watters]

Thanks for the replies.
As Joe pointed out, there appears to be no real concensus on the pros or cons.
Peter, I totally agree with your points in relation to the benifits regarding birdlife, butterflies and creepie crawlies. And I agree with your points regarding the frost free protection, food sources, early nesting benefits, etc. But my initial point was that the benefits of an ivy covered tree that dies say in 10 years, are surely outweighted by the cons of the shortened life of said tree, if it were to survive, say another 50 years (short term gains v long term losses).
You also raise an important point regarding "demesne trees". All the records for tree longevity are from these same specimen trees - ones which would be kept ivy free. Indeed the trees, for example, in your own Phoenix Park look much healthier than those in Rathescar woods, which I mentioned previously.
I am not argueing the case for or against ivy, as I do not have to required knowledge to do so. I am purely going on my personal observations, which may of course, as Peter stated, be biased by my anti-ivy prejudices.
Surely it would not be difficult to conduct research into this matter - section off part of a wood and keep it ivy free - or remove ivy from every second tree on a demesne and see how things progress (something for me to do next weekend!)

Dolce, I have seen blackcaps nesting in ivy as well as a wrens nest concealed by ivy. In both instances, the ivy was growing on walls, not trees! I would imagine that any tree-nesting birds would find ivy suitable to nest in.

Derek

 

[j curtis]

Hi,
Again on the Ivy matter;
Just have a look at this UK site where it tries to look at all aspects of Ivy growing on trees, houses etc.
http://www.whatprice.co.uk/gardening/ivy.html#EffectTrees

One other side effect thrown up by the American reseach which is critical to the re-generation of forests/woods is the ground cover given by Ivy prevents tree seedlings growing on the woodland floor. This is probably the most important factor: summary might be "Ivy is fine in the garden but not to be encouraged in Wood/Forest".
Perhaps my summary is too simplistic?
Joe

 

[Derek Watters]

Ivy

I have being doing some online research on this subject. Below are some quotes I found online regarding ivy which may be of interest:

"An experiment was carried out, from 1890-1942, where ivy was cut on half the trees in a wood, and left to its own devices on the rest. When the wood was felled in 1942 there appeared to be no difference in the height, average girth or cubic content of the trees. On the other hand, in parks and gardens where conditions have allowed it to grow unchecked, it can become quite a problem; choking the crowns of ornamental trees, swamping less vigorous shrubs and smothering walls and rockeries."

" Ivy uses trees for support but does not feed on the tree. Generally healthy trees will not allow ivy to become fully established. However, as trees age their crowns may begin to allow more light to penetrate. In such situations the extra light can stimulate growth in the ivy at the expense of the tree which subsequently declines.
Ivy tends to establish itself in deciduous trees. These trees lose their leaves in winter, to lower their wind resistance. Because ivy is evergreen, it raises the wind resistance and increases its weight which means that the tree is more likely to suffer damage in stormy conditions.
In addition, the presence of ivy can hinder tree inspections and may conceal serious defects in a tree."

The general consensus is that the ivy generally only damages already unhealthy trees. As always, there are exceptions. The main damage is caused when the ivy takes over the crown of the tree. Ash trees apparantely have very light crowns and thus sufficient light penetrates to allow the ivy to grow vigorously. Trees that are pruned eg. around electricity wires etc may suffer more at the hands of ivy growth.

 

[breffni]

I once saw a garden where the owner had cut the dense ivy growth from the base of four large deciduous trees to "save" them and they promptly fell over in the next big wind, one flattening his garden shed...

Out at Cruisetown yesterday were the two 1W icelands (they were at the stream near the toilets), a sandwich tern (100) and a velvet scoter (101). Also good numbers of redshank, dunlin, ringed plover and sanderling but other than the icelands only about a dozen gulls. I presume the sandwich tern is overwintering rather than an early migrant. There were about 12 whoopers at Keenans cross pond. (also ticked gasj at the navvy bank!)

 

[breffni]

Missed the deadline for the press release for Don Hodgers talk on Damsels and Dragonflies. This is scheduled for Tuesday 4th February 2008 at the Spirit Store upstairs at 8pm. Please circulate the information to anybody who may be interested. Thanks!

 

[Peter Phillips]

"An experiment was carried out, from 1890-1942, where ivy was cut on half the trees in a wood, and left to its own devices on the rest. When the wood was felled in 1942 there appeared to be no difference in the height, average girth or cubic content of the trees. On the other hand, in parks and gardens where conditions have allowed it to grow unchecked, it can become quite a problem; choking the crowns of ornamental trees, swamping less vigorous shrubs and smothering walls and rockeries."


The general consensus is that the ivy generally only damages already unhealthy trees. As always, there are exceptions. The main damage is caused when the ivy takes over the crown of the tree. Ash trees apparantely have very light crowns and thus sufficient light penetrates to allow the ivy to grow vigorously. Trees that are pruned eg. around electricity wires etc may suffer more at the hands of ivy growth.

Good work Derek.

Go light with your clippers this weekend!

In summary (if I may)So in a healthy woodland Ivy competes just like all the other plants, but on balance is a benefit to that habitat.

In unhealthy and man made environments Ivy can be a problem. But much less of a problem than to many humans!

Instead of snipping Ivy this weekend mabye we should be snipping something else a little closer to home.

 

[Peter Phillips]

Todays birds

Not much around today except for the 3 Iceland Gulls and a self filling bag of sand at Cruisetown. The birds would not co-operate for the camera except for this Kestrel at Salterstown. 6 Black Guillemots at Clogher Head

Louth was looking particularly nice today.

4th Picture; From Salterstown looking towards The Cooley Mountains.

Those fishermen are now dredging off Salterstown.

 

[breffni]

Nice kestrel - nice to get a male.

Boats were suction-dredging razor clams - cockles are still closed - the grading is different so they can select only the razors and i think it is further out - only in the deeper water. I counted nine boats...(from giles quay).

 

[Derek Watters]

Treecreepers

Some Treecreeper photos from this morning.

 

[yew]

Hi Derek,
Lovely pictures of the tree creepers. I did figure out last sept or october that I had a flock of very fat black caps indeed arriving daily at 4pm and sitting perched very high up in trees for ages watching all that was going on. Indeed I still have more than plenty of ivy in hawthorn trees to keep birds happy. I had previously thought them to be sparrows and had time then to notice them behaving differently than sparrows and learnt sparrows had no black heads. I had other birds which seemed to sit quite high up in trees too swaying their heads and body over and back constantly on branch and singing beautifully for hours at a time, not sure what ? Hopefully I will have them again this summer. Still have goldfinches daily feeding and three small siskins walking on grass for ages today. Too cold to sit out in a quiet corner yet until they appear without having noticed me but hopefully soon better weather. I also had a large bird with red/brownish back and think grey underneath creeping around the chafinches few times too but mostly keeping back behind ivy. I will have to get a better look at it at weekend.

 

[yew]

I am recalling too that there were articles in local papers summer before last about them removing ivy from some exotic precious trees discovered by people from the Woodland Trust in the old Daisyhill woodland. I think one of the trees is a walnut and forget names of others but anyhow they were looking volunteers to help remove ivy and bamboo as well as other work.

 

[mikejack82]

Some Treecreeper photos from this morning.

Grrr I can't get a decent Treecreeper pic! Well done!