Crested tit or great tit? (1 Viewer)

[JayFeatherPL]

Are these songs (calls) crested tit's or great tit's? Because It sounds like crested tit, but on the Merlin Bird App, in the great tit's calls section, the first call (not song) sounds identically to the crested tit, so I wonder if the great tit really can sound like crested tit? Or maybe great tits mimic crested tits?

 

[01101001]

1) Crested Tit
2) maybe Crested Tit as well, but I'm less certain after your remarks
to me, anyway

I think Crested Tit is more possible to be confused with a certain call of Nuthatch or maybe Blue Tit, but I haven't known/thought about Great Tit in that context.

 

[Richard Prior]

Both recordings sound fine for Crested Tit to me. The second sounds close by, didn’t you see the bird JayF?

 

[JayFeatherPL]

1) Crested Tit
2) maybe Crested Tit as well, but I'm less certain after your remarks
to me, anyway

I think Crested Tit is more possible to be confused with a certain call of Nuthatch or maybe Blue Tit, but I haven't known/thought about Great Tit in that context.

So how to distinguish the crested tit's call from the other birds' calls? I thought that both nuthatch and blue tits have completely different calls

 

[Xenospiza]

These are both typical Crested Tit calls. I have never heard any call by a tit or nuthatch even approaching these.

 

[01101001]

Confusing Blue Tit's song with that of Crested Tit might be my personal problem, and I don't think they're particularly similar when compared side by side. If anything, it's the structure: first, a few thin whistles, and, then, a faster, more melodious part composed of multiple short elements.

The call of Nuthatch--on the other hand--is almost exactly the same, except slower. Unfortunately--as much as I'd like to and given that such descriptions are very helpful to me as well--I don't think I can elaborate much on the difference, so I'll attach some selected XC recordings instead.

Nuthatch from slow to fast:
XC830901 Eurasian Nuthatch (Sitta europaea) (slow)
XC830896 Eurasian Nuthatch (Sitta europaea) (middle)
XC830899 Eurasian Nuthatch (Sitta europaea) (fast)

Crested Tit from very fast to super fast (the difference in pitch may or may not to be due to the distance between the recordist and the bird):
XC680908 European Crested Tit (Lophophanes cristatus) (very fast)
XC822742 European Crested Tit (Lophophanes cristatus) (very very fast)
XC594675 European Crested Tit (Lophophanes cristatus) (super fast)

(cross-posted)

 

[JayFeatherPL]

So great tits don't have a similar call to the crested tits? Is it possible to mistake the crested tit's call for the other bird's call?

 

[Richard Prior]

So great tits don't have a similar call to the crested tits? Is it possible to mistake the crested tit's call for the other bird's call?

Great Tit has a wide variety of calls but I have never heard one calling like a Crested Tit. In my experience the Crested Tit call cannot be mistaken for anything else. See also Xenospiza’s post 5 above.

 

[01101001]

So great tits don't have a similar call to the crested tits? Is it possible to mistake the crested tit's call for the other bird's call?

You can try to give an example if you have it or look for it/record it, but at least I haven't heard it, too.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Great Tit has a wide variety of calls but I have never heard one calling like a Crested Tit. In my experience the Crested Tit call cannot be mistaken for anything else.

Agree

 

[JayFeatherPL]

Btw, what is the best source to listen to the birds' sounds? And not only a song, but also calls, alarm calls, etc. Is it the Merlin App?

 

[Butty]

Xeno-canto

 

[JayFeatherPL]

Xeno-canto

But I think, there are many same sounds, I'm looking for an app/website where I can listen to every (or almost every) possible sound

 

[BoldenEagle]

I have once heard great tit sounding as a crested tit to a degree that if I hadn't seen it, I would definitely say crested. But the place (my yard, quite isolated place with little forest surrounded by fields) rose suspicion and I confirmed visually that it was a great tit. Over some 20 years I have seen crested tit just few times at my yard.

Also great tit calling like willow tit was so similar that without visual observation it would have definitely passed as a willow.

So I would say that these both records are about 99.99% certain crested tit

Regards, Juhani

 

[Butty]

I have once heard great tit sounding as a crested tit to a degree that if I hadn't seen it, I would definitely say crested.

This is the oft-ignored and all-pervading Great Tit Problem: they have calls without number or classification.

I think, there are many same sounds, I'm looking for an app/website where I can listen to every (or almost every) possible sound

I think you mean a source which contains all the known calls, classified and without duplication. Try Birds of the Western Palearctic, app (Apple) or DVD.

 

[JayFeatherPL]

This is the oft-ignored and all-pervading Great Tit Problem: they have calls without number or classification.

I think you mean a source which contains all the known calls, classified and without duplication. Try Birds of the Western Palearctic, app (Apple) or DVD.

Is the Merlin App good too?

 

[01101001]

Re eBird, Macaulay Library & Merlin:
Up to a point, but it's not complete (not all calls for different vocal groups; no song for Lesser Spotted Woodpecker), the descriptions are scant compared to XC (e.g., no subsong), and there are mistakes (Green Woodpecker's song was recently still labelled as Grey Woodpecker's; changed now).

1) Very detailed but selective (🇬🇧): Web-books - The Sound Approach, Articles - The Sound Approach & Nocturnal Flight Calls - The Sound Approach
2) (Not-so-) complete resource for woodpeckers (🇩🇪): Vocalisations of Woodpeckers - www.ornitho.de
3) Sonograms of flight calls (🇬🇧, 🇵🇱, ...): Identification Guide to European Passerines
4) Sonograms and descriptions (🇩🇪): Stimmen der Vögel Europas
5) Rough descriptions (🇬🇧, 🇵🇱, ...): Collins guide
6) Books by Stanislas Wroza (🇫🇷): Identifier les oiseaux migrateurs par le son | Delachaux et Niestlé & Chants et cris d'oiseaux | Delachaux et Niestlé
7) xenocanto (🇬🇧, 🇵🇱, ...) is the most comprehensive

I have once heard great tit sounding as a crested tit to a degree that if I hadn't seen it, I would definitely say crested. But the place (my yard, quite isolated place with little forest surrounded by fields) rose suspicion and I confirmed visually that it was a great tit. Over some 20 years I have seen crested tit just few times at my yard.

Also great tit calling like willow tit was so similar that without visual observation it would have definitely passed as a willow.

So I would say that these both records are about 99.99% certain crested tit

Regards, Juhani

Did it do it just once, or is such mimicry possible multiple times in a row?

 

[BoldenEagle]

Did it do it just once, or is such mimicry possible multiple times in a row?

Several times while moving in the trees, just like crested.

Also the one with willow type calls.

Regards, Juhani

 

[JayFeatherPL]

Thanks a lot for the answers? And is it a song of the great tit or blue tit (blue tit, I think)? Can great tits sound like this too? And the second recording is great tit's call I think, and again: can blue tits sound like this too?

 

[01101001]

(1) What I myself usually do in such situations is check Merlin's opinion, upload the file to BirdNET, and compare with example recordings in Merlin (in extreme cases, XC might be needed). The apps do make mistakes, but if you go through all three steps (the last one is esp. important in difficult cases), the likelihood of error should be minimal. (2) The next step (again, for me) is guessing the species first, then checking with the apps.

Caveat: these days, Merlin (plus confirmation if you're unsure) is usually enough unless it's a rare species or you suspect Merlin may be getting it wrong.

Thanks a lot for the answers? And is it a song of the great tit or blue tit (blue tit, I think)? Can great tits sound like this too? And the second recording is great tit's call I think, and again: can blue tits sound like this too?

I'd tend to agree with your ID's.

The rule of the thumb is (apart from the minimal pairs liable to confusion that you can read about in the internet) if both apps are very certain and show no other candidates, there's a decent chance a call is unique. This can and will at times give you false positives, i.e. when an app is unduly certain of its ID, but you'll pick out the similar pairs in time.

These two sounds you recorded should, as far as I know, be distinctive, and they're the only hard-and-fast, well-described and quantifiable difference between the calls of the two tits that I know about.