Curlew sp. at Minsmere (23 Viewers)

[mountain man]

Just to illustrate my point about photographic misrepresentation: these pics aren't new, but I've only just come across them..

http://www.vzwlagare.be/vwgforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1152&whichpage=32

For those birders that have seen this bird, which pics most remind you of what you saw? Dick Newell's or these.

Now ask yourselves again: Is this bird really a Eurasian Curlew?

 

[Edward woodwood]

this is getting a bit circular now

although I've always said not SBC i wasn't totally sure it was EC from the start what with the lack of certain knowledge of variation in curlew spp forms and the reports of the russians concerning the validity of it as a species, the existence of mixed pairs and the fact that more hybrid pairs than pure SBC have been found breeding (perhaps not even one pair given the doubts over Ushakov's work) but it's looking more and more that that is just what it is. I'm not putting any store by these pix and i'm suprised folks are trying to 'analyse' some of them. Again, what is in the books at the time of writing is never the last word on anything.....

None of my friends and people I know who've seen 'SBC' have thought it one for a minute purely on structure, build, size and jizz rtc and some wouldn't even go to see it so sure were they.

 

[mountain man]

Anyhow, this will all be forgotten in about an hour as there is currently a snipe on St.Marys showing characters of Wilson's Snipe!!!

Brace yourselves, here we go again...

 

[Rob Smallwood]

News headline shock - autumn birder on Scillies finds bird not showing characters of a rarity!!

Only joking!

 

[Grousemore]

For those birders that have seen this bird, which pics most remind you of what you saw? Dick Newell's or these.

These.
I discounted the two-bird theory on the basis that it would be impossible with so many watchers on site....but after the disparity between early and late photos, I'm beginning to wonder.
(this is not a suggestion that I think the bird I saw is SBC, just a comment on how different the variouc pics look)

 

[Jane Turner]

Just to illustrate my point about photographic misrepresentation: these pics aren't new, but I've only just come across them..

http://www.vzwlagare.be/vwgforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1152&whichpage=32

For those birders that have seen this bird, which pics most remind you of what you saw? Dick Newell's or these.

Now ask yourselves again: Is this bird really a Eurasian Curlew?

Actually Tom its these pics that convinced me it wasn't SBC.. it looks so heavily built in the pics where it is alongside a more typical EC.

 

[John Cantelo]

Tom Mckinney wrote - "John, I think you misunderstood me. It is the bird, but the photos (Dick Newell's anyway) are crap and I swear they don't show it properly. I've seen it twice for a total of about 6 hours and none of those pics are an accurate representation of the bird I saw".

Apologies if I've misunderstood, Tom, I will try to better this time!

Obviously, as I didn't see the bird and am only judging the photos, I am at a disadvantage. I'm struggling, though, to understand how come the photos that seem to be the sharpest and most detailed can be singled out to be particularly "crap". It also seems odd to me that the sharper and more detailed the pictures (as I believe Dick's to be), the less the bird looks like SBC or, at least, more debatably so. When you say they don't show it 'properly' I take it to mean that certain features are distorted rather than not showing it properly cos it doesn't look like anyone's perception of what SBC should look like! (Sorry, that's a sly dig, but one I couldn't resist). If the published photos do show the same bird and that that bird is the one everyone's talking about, then it is bizarre how none of them are an "accurate representation" of the bird concerned.

The really odd thing is if you take some of Dick Newell's photos blur them a tad & reduce them in size (i.e. as you might perceive the bird through a 'scope at long range) then the more like SBC it becomes! And more like those found at www.vzwlagare.be/vwgforum/to...52&whichpage=32 (If you really want to push it play a little with the colour balance to mimic the effects of light conditions optics bias …….)

Incidentally, there's a picture of adult 'Western' Curlew (in "The MacMillan Field Guide to North Atlantic Shorebirds" by Richard Chandler p155) which has a bill to head length ratio very similar to that of the Minsmere bird (as measured from one of Dick's photos). (I make it 'Minsmere Curlew' 8:12 as against Chandler's bird 12:17). Given other similarities in the two birds' plumage then if the curlew featured in Chandler's book also happened to be on the small side (and I know from personal experience how much small some Curlews can be) then I'd be pushed to tell the two apart. Then again, that might just indicate that it's not the photos, but me that's 'crap'! John

 

[David FG]

This was the subject of an article in today's Times. It seems that there is considerable doubt about its status as an SBC. Apparently Birdline are not publicising it.

 

[Grousemore]

This was the subject of an article in today's Times. It seems that there is considerable doubt about its status as an SBC. Apparently Birdline are not publicising it.

Regardless of 'Birdline', the article does say that both Adam Gretton and Didier Vangeluwe, both of whom have experience of SBC, are confident that the Minsmere bird is that species.

The article is by Mark Cocker and can be read by the link below;
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,175-1299428,00.html

 

[Winterdune]

On the rspb website they say poo analysis won't be conclusive, despite mark cocker's - and Birdlife's - hopes. I presume because it won't rule out a hybrid.

Does anyone know if there is any video footage of this bird on the web yet? (And are there ANY photos of a non adult SBC of any description and in any stage of moult anywhere?)

Incidently, has anyone read "Last of the Curlews" by Fred Bosworth? About another species but sadly a similar story being played out with SBC...

 

[Ben Rackstraw]

The really odd thing is if you take some of Dick Newell's photos blur them a tad & reduce them in size (i.e. as you might perceive the bird through a 'scope at long range) then the more like SBC it becomes! And more like those found at www.vzwlagare.be/vwgforum/to...52&whichpage=32 (If you really want to push it play a little with the colour balance to mimic the effects of light conditions optics bias …….)

Similarly, John, I thought the initial photos looked very promising, and was very surprised (and disappointed) when I saw the bird in the field. However, from the [pretty poor] video footage I have, there are some grabs that look remarkably good for SBC in terms of bill structure...the light conditions and the exact angle at which the head is positioned in relation to the camera have a significant effect - when it strays just a tiny bit away from perpendicular that bill tip starts to get very fine, even before it is apparent that the bird's head is turning.

 

[Edward woodwood]

Regardless of 'Birdline', the article does say that both Adam Gretton and Didier Vangeluwe, both of whom have experience of SBC, are confident that the Minsmere bird is that species.

The article is by Mark Cocker and can be read by the link below;
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,175-1299428,00.html

Still?

btw Ushakov is the ONLY person to have found an SBC nest but this is doubted now as his eggs were orientalis Curlew

and my mate Dave who has experience of SBC says they aren't.

 

[Jane Turner]

Still?

btw Ushakov is the ONLY person to have found an SBC nest but this is doubted now as his eggs were orientalis Curlew

and my mate Dave who has experience of SBC says they aren't.

What is it that your mate Dave says they aren't?

Anyone know anything about the migration strategy of Cox's Sandpiper in relation to its parents... are they Pec and Curlew Sand???? I can't remember.

 

[Edward woodwood]

What is it that your mate Dave says they aren't?

sorry Jane, we were a bit plastered when we posted that last nite B

Trevor posted that Didier and Adam G. have experience of the species and reckoned it was one; I know about 6 folks with experience of the species who reckon it isn't. Proves nowt either way of course

winds are turning easterly over here, starting to look good

atb
Tim

 

[Grousemore]

Trevor posted that Didier and Adam G. have experience of the species and reckoned it was one; I know about 6 folks with experience of the species who reckon it isn't. Proves nowt either way of course



Tim

Hi Tim, I was only passing on the full article for what it was worth...I have no personal information on the two people's opinions, or whether they have changed them subsequently.

 

[Edward woodwood]

thanks for posting it Trevor. Interesting reading anyway.

 

[John Cantelo]

Neck-on-chopping-block time, I think. Can anyone please explain to me why the bird in Dick's photos isn't a Eurasian Curlew? I can't think of a single valid reason (some guys saying it is one not being a vaild reason), John

 

[mountain man]

I can't, John!

The photos scared the living hell out of me when I saw them. I don't care about about cocking things up (I'm very used to it) and I'm not a tick hungry big lister, but I really thought I'd gone mad(der). I agree that the bird in Dick Newell's pics looks nowt like a SbC!

However, John, surely you can accept that so many people, including many with such distinguished reputations and experience, would never have tried to string this bird if it really did look like the bird in those pics?

My current view is that if I don't see it in the flesh again (may possibly go on Tuesday if it turns up again) I can no longer justify it as one. Those pics have stumped me! If I do see it on Tuesday I will spend all day trying to obtain some reasonable quality video and I will email it to you. Hows that?

Tom

 

[Edward woodwood]

However, John, surely you can accept that so many people, including many with such distinguished reputations and experience, would never have tried to string this bird if it really did look like the bird in those pics?
Tom

Watchit Macca

can't explain it - they were caught up in the hysteria i guess. :eek!: It was a time for calm nerves, level heads and objectivity......

hope u went for that White's today - now that's a real bird o

 

[John Cantelo]

I can't, John!
However, John, surely you can accept that so many people, including many with such distinguished reputations and experience, would never have tried to string this bird if it really did look like the bird in those pics?

Those pics have stumped me! If I do see it on Tuesday I will spend all day trying to obtain some reasonable quality video and I will email it to you. Hows that? Tom

Ummm! It wouldn't be the first time that the great and good have shown themselves to have the same feet of clay as the rest of us. I do think that some of the earlier, distant, smudgier photos - which surely reflected the viewing conditions at the time - did give pause for thought .... and how!

I never expected Tom to bear the brunt of my query so is there ANYONE out there to explain why the bird in Dick's photos is a SBC?

However, bear in mind that some highly talented birders never bought into it being a SBC. Thanks for the offer of sending me more piccies, John