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Eyeglasses - a few unqualified remarks (1 Viewer)

Tringa45

Well-known member
Europe
We haven't seen much of our resident optician Looksharp65 recently, so here are a few observations open to correction.

Use with binoculars:-
If one cannot see clearly at moderate distances with the naked eyes, due either to near-sightedness, advanced presbyopia or astigmatism, then one is going to need correction when birding, and if wearing glasses the eye relief of the binoculars should ideally be sufficient to see the field stop.
Correction for far-sightedness with positive lenses effectively reduces eye relief, whereas negative lenses for the near-sighted increase it.
Swarovski's specifications for eye relief seem to be fairly consistent, so being far-sighted I am content with about 18 mm by their standards. Two or three mm less would probably suffice for the near-sighted.

Frames:-
Titanium is an ideal material for spectacle frames. Being strong, the frames can be made thin without intruding into the peripheral vision. It is also light in weight and hypoallergenic. The high yield strength though makes it difficult to adjust, so the frame should be a comfortable fit from the start.
Lenses should not be too large. Negative lenses that correct for near-sightedness will have a certain minimal thickness at the optical centre and get progressively thicker towards the edge, so weight will increase exponentially with increasing diameter.
Positive lenses that correct for far-sightedness require a minimal edge thickness, so the thickness of the blanks at the optical centre will also have to be adapted to the lens diameter.
The ideal lens shape would be circular if the lens spacing corresponded with the wearer's IPD. Rectangular shapes that have been fashionable in recent years make inefficient use of lens blanks and are unsuitable for multifocal lenses. The so-called "panto" form is a good compromise.

Varifocals and Bifocals:-
Apart from cost, bifocals have a number of advantages. When used with binoculars one can avoid the near section intruding into the view and for reading the usable width is greater than for varifocals. The borderline also provides a visual check of correct allignment. My specs once came back from the opticians with one bifocal lens visibly askew. An assembly error of that kind would have been a lot harder to detect with varifocals and would have caused much frustration.
The disadvantages with bifocals are theoretically the intermediate distances. My eye doctor always prescribes an addition of 2,5 dioptres, which corresponds to a reading distance of 40 cm. I, however always request a +2 dioptre addition (50 cm) and this works well for reading and also for a laptop. The worst case would be +1 dioptre, i.e. 1 m distance, but in good light, objects at this distance are acceptably sharp, top or bottom.

Lens materials:-
There are still some advocates of borosilicate glass but for the comparatively weak lenses used for eyeglasses no-one would ever detect any optical advantages. It does have a comparatively high Abbe no. (low dispersion) but transmits quite a lot of UVA and even some UVB, see here:-https://entokey.com/spectacle-lens-materials/
Scratch resistance is not really a valid argument as modern coatings provide similar or better scratch resistance than the glass substrate and their renunciation would entail reflective losses of 4% at each surface, i.e. an 8% transmission loss!
For moderate prescriptions CR-39 is an ideal plastic material. It's cheap, hard and has low dispersion (CA) and good UV absorption. There's just one minor caveat (see "pitfalls" below).

Cleaning:-
Careful cleaning involves no effort. Just a drop of liquid soap between thumb and forefinger under running water. If the lenses have hydrophobic coatings the water droplets can be dabbed off with a soft tissue (Kleenex or similar). I always have a box in the bathroom solely for this purpose. If out birding in cold weather teardrops can fall on the lenses, particularly if using an angled scope, and then a lens cleang tissue can be useful.

Pitfalls:-
A short while ago my everyday glasses fell onto gravel and sufferd a minor scratch. After six years of daily cleaning they had been in absolute pristine condition, so I took them to the opticians for a new set of CR-39 lenses with a minor change in prescription.
For everyday I was then using a second pair I had bought some years ago. This is a rather expensive and very minimalist titanium frame with contoured nose bridge, lacking nose pads and sleeves on the temples. I chose the frameless version, which was about €100 cheaper than the full frame -big mistake!
Frameless designs require great precision in assembly and the chain of opticians with whom I had previously been very satisfied botched it completely. They do guarantee customer satisfaction or your money back and at the third attempt eventually got it right.
While taking off some headphones, one of the temples got caught and a lens snapped. Another BF member had pointed out that CR-39 is unsuitable for frameless designs because of insufficient strength, so these went in for some new Trivex lenses.
The bill for otherwise identical bifocal lenses was €157 for CR-39 in full frame and €426 for Trivex in frameless!

John
 
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Another good material for frames is nitinol, a superelastic shape memory alloy of nickel and titanium that is very robust, as long as you are not allergic to nickel.
 
The eyeglass frame I use with binoculars is made of surgical steel by Ovvo.
It's very thin, light and durable.


The lenses are made of polycarbonate. I have a weak prescription so the lenses aren't too thick.
 
I'm short sighted with astigmatism and wear varifocals. The most important caveat for me, when choosing a frame, is to ensure the nose pads are part of the moulded frame. Separate nose pads, either attached directly on to the frame, or (far worse) are attached to wires soldered on to the frame, are a no no for me. They either become very painful, during the course of a day in the field, or become squashed, causing the way the glasses sit on the nose to become misaligned and uneven, which leads to comfort and alignment issues with the binoculars.
 
So John,

If we thought the variables of binocular choices were a challenge, what have you gone and done?

Some context, having worn eyeglasses for the last 60 years, I could not tell you whether I was near or farsighted. Neither could I say what my vision, e.g. 20-20 etc. was. I knew I had a challenging amount of Astigmatism and contacts weren’t possible. I was also told by an Optometrist whom I trusted, that in spite of my challenging prescription, I would see things many of his patients could not. Make of that what you might. Presbyopia set in years ago. I was happy enough to get glasses that enabled me to see, and perform the tasks I needed. Recently reading here, feeling only slightly guilty at this, I made an attempt to capture some of this. My Astigmatism was left +3.75 and right + 4.5. With glasses 20-40 right and 20-100 left. I think, I heard them say. Im not casual about this stuff, but I didn't need the labels to accomplish the mission of a better prescription. I own and have used regularly 5 pairs of glasses each with a different mission. Normal every day, all weather bifocals, Polarized sunglasses with bifocal, (gottta be able to see to tie on flys when fishing in bright sun), Trivex safety glasses for metal and wood shop, one setup with computer distance on top and reading bifocal on bottom, and last, (this'll challenge Maljunolo) a pair with right lens set for close in but farther than computer and left lens down range, ahem… Plastic or Ti, nose pads or molded.

What do I think I know?

Ti as a frame material is great but not all titanium is created equal. Titanium can be alloyed just as steel or aluminum, or. Its probably better if it is, depending. Aluminum (sorta strangely) and vanadium, depending on proportions, change the physical characteristics, eg bendability, formability, and/or shape retention. Most eyeglass frame makers don't advertise what they use. Similarly most eyeglass shops dont know. Having used it for years, I dont know which is best for eyeglasses fames. Price does seem to follow better materials, based on longevity/durability. Eyeglass pricing and profit margins are widely variable. Have used Lindberg with flexible plastic fronts, wire nose pads and Ti temples for years. Held up very well. Stupid price.

Bifocals vs varifocals depends on prescription and personal sensibility, (not just vanity). I gather vari-lens have gotten better, but do to my extreme astigmatism and penchant for fairly active aggressive activities, and Optometrist advice, Ive been a bi-focal user for decades. Set up of those is a variable that effects bino use. Being taller, not wanting the close focus lens edge appearing across people's chins, while standing and talking, I've had my close focus lens set lower than the typical Optometrist or Optician would. An (unplanned) side benefit is this gets the top edge of the inset lens out of the lower peripheral binocular view... sometimes. This MAY be of interest to folks here and may unwittingly even impact some' experience with binoculars. The recommendation to avoid Vari lens for me was do to the hour glass shape of the complex lens’ correction. Think of rolling ball, panning issue in binos. Moving targets as happens in certain activities, that require rapid head and eye movement can be challenging for some with the wasp waisted, wider distance, narrower mid range, then wider again close focus field, I was advised. What if panning issues blamed on binos were in fact the product of vari lens eyeglasses? Just askin….

For me, close focus/reading and computer focal distance are quite different things. Suspect this may be a function of desk top size and distance from where I sit to computer. I have been happiest with a pair of glasses with computer distance on top and reading distance bifocals in the usual, that reside on my desk.

Re lens materials, because of certain activities, machining and furniture making for instance, where tools are sharp and chips are flying, safety lens are required. That rules out CR39. Last pair were Trivex, billed as superior optically to Polycarbonate, thinner and lighter. They were great. But "Phew" the price!

Going between various binoculars, 35 year old Zeiss 1040Bs, ’19 EL1042, VP825 and NL 832, with eyeglasses has worked fine. Well sorta. The "spot weld" (to steal a term from another discipline), Ive used for years - top of bino ocular lens rim to junction of eyeglass frame/eyebrow has served fine. Things did change with the NLs. With those to avoid glare, (yep I now see it if I don't do the following), Ive had to slide the upper edge of the ocular down just a bit below the eyeglass frame and make sure I pull the bino's oculars in parallel to my eyeglass lens.

But then…

Im just 2 months out from having Cataract surgery, new lens, in both eyes. Toric, (astigmatism corrective) lens used. Just when you thought you had it all figured out! After 60 years, it's a little weird to being walking around streets, driving, looking through binos with no eyeglasses. ELs work great with same eyecup setting, all the way down. Still no glare. NLs require one step up, positioning just under eyebrow and bottom tipped back towards eyes. Glare can be present but for all practical purposes with that position is managed just fine. VPs not as comfy, as folks report here, without eyeglass lens intervening.

Choice between a new binocular, (no matter the degree of gearheadedness) and this surgery is easy.
 
Chiming in here casually, just like that 😁 not pretending I have the solution for everyone when it comes to spectacles.

Lately, I've been lurking around more here, but I must be cautious not to put in too much effort in order to preserve my sanity. But at the moment, optics are all the rage again for me, but I'm also out there birding more nowadays. After having given the Svbony scope to my son, and vainly looked for a substitute, I defied the vow to myself and ordered another 406P ED 80 mm. And what a scope! If the first sample was 95% of my Nikon ED82A due to a small amount of CA, this one is virtually indistinguishable from the Nikon. I'm considering to invest in a Pentax XW14 or one of those Nikon NAV eyepieces for it.

Almost always when I'm off work I use contact lenses. The latest iteration of them are so sharp it's surreal. This influences which binoculars I use. If the weather is fine, I prefer the 8x30 E II, so thanks to the contacts, it is no more the outlier and the exception in my collection, it's the preferred tool of the trade. Sometimes it's replaced by the Kite Lynx ED 8x30 due to precipitate and temperature issues. The EDG 7x42 is particularly fine in cold weather because its eye relief is so large that I can use wrap-style protective spectacles over my contacts to minimise excessive tearflow. The contacts are so insanely sharp that 7x and 8x deliver all there is to see. The Meopta 12x50 can accordingly often replace the scope now.
Obviously, I want to buy more, but I'm so happy with what I have that I can't find a base not covered. A Kowa 6,5x32 and a MHG 10x42 are desired, but not really more than just that - desired.

In general, it's my opinion that maximised visual acuity with corrective lenses is a prerequisite for good vision in binoculars. If you have a moderate myopia or hyperopia but no astigmatism, you can allow yourself to take the glasses off and focus with the binoculars.
I simply don't understand why people buy binoculars for two or three grand, when their uncorrected vision is so poor. A budget binocular allowing the use of spectacles can simply crush an NL Pure used w/o spectacles if you're unfortunate (read: stupid enough not to prioritise your eyes)

Varifocal lenses are "Jack of all trades, master of none". All spectacle lenses introduce distorsions, and most of us willingly adapt thanks to the brain's plasticity. In everyday life, varifocals can oftentimes be the most feasible solution. But the compromises of varifocals are a magnitude higher than the already distorting single vision lenses, and those compromises will show when used with top-of-the-line binoculars.
Immediately below pupil height, the progression channel begins. It is quite frankly narrow. And if the binocular's eye relief is on the tight side, so you're forced to raise your chin to let the eyeglass touch the eyecup even in the lowest part, you will be looking through the narrow progression zone.
So the almost-sharp-to the edge binocular will end up appearing mediocre.

I therefore recommend getting a pair of good single-vision distance spectacles for use with binoculars. Granted, this will also be fiddly for some who want to, or need to see at close range too. This is where contacts enter. With monovision, the bin's diopter can be used to even out the difference between the eyes while maintaining good reading acuity. With both contacts set to distance sharpness, you can use cheap reading glasses when necessary.

Frame materials, nose pads and such are a personal choice. What is one man's only possible alternative, won't fit the other. Stick to what makes you happy but make sure the binoculars have enough eye relief.

//L
 
I use glasses/spectacles for some 80% or more of my observation. I find steadiness (in how the frame sits) very important. The steadier the connection the less wobble/jitter/shake. This was forcefully brought home to me last week when using an 8.5 Swarovski to search for birds over surface-feeding tuna on a friend's small boat. With one pair of glasses (that sat more steadily) I could use this binocular reasonably effectively; with another pair - rimless and lighter weight - there was an extra element of movement that made me dizzy. I can use this pair of glasses on land, but when afloat that extra bit of movement, when added to the motion of the boat, was too much.

My steadier pair of glasses is heavier, stiffer and I suppose less comfortable. It also places binoculars further away from my eye - which can be troublesome for binoculars with shorter eye relief, but works very well with the (excessively) long eye relief of my Nikon 10x42 SE. If you have a favourite binocular that is a little tight on eye relief eg. my Zeiss Dialyt 10x40B with only about 15mm, I highly recommend trying different frames/styles till you find one that lets you easily see the whole field of view.
 
People like me with diabetes have highly acidic sweat which erodes pits in normal metal spectacle frames but can be solved by specifying titanium frames.
 
A word of thanks to all those who contributed to this thread, especially Tringa45 and looksharp65. There is a wealth of valuable information here. I only wish it had been posted a year ago when I made the switch from contacts (after more than 40 years) to glasses. Would have saved me a lot of work, as I knew virtually nothing about glasses at the time. And things were quite complicated in my case, with a large difference between my eyes and some considerable astigmatism in one. I decided to make the switch because I found the contacts increasingly wearisome with all the dust and pollen in the air in our increasingly dry summers.

So, without all this information I had to do my own research. After some talks to my eye doctor and a few sessions with my optician, this is what I came up with:

1. I went for single-vision glasses. Varifocals were right out after my discussions with my optician, especially after I brought along a binocular so that she knew what it looks like when you use binoculars with glasses. Looksharp explained the reasons perfectly. I also decided against getting bifocals. This means I have to take my glasses off when I want to read something or check the camera display of course. I can live with that.

2. I chose a round, smallish and close-fitting frame. It worked a lot better than bigger, more squarish frames with the binoculars I tested. On the advice of my optician I didn't go frameless. Not enough stability when pressing the eyepieces against the glasses. Titanium seemed the ideal frame material, so I got it.

3. Originally I wanted to get borosilicate glass, but on the advice of my eye doctor I decided against it. Plastic is a lot safer when an airbag goes off in the car in an accident. She works in a large centre that has its own operating theatre, and told me she'd seen quite a few bad injuries from cracked glasses.

4. We spent some time checking and re-checking the values for both eyes, on different days, until my optician was sure she'd got the correct values. The end result was pretty good - I've now got better than 10/10 vision in both eyes. Not bad at my age.

Hermann
 
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.....
4. We spent some time checking and re-checking the values for both eyes, on different days, until my optician was sure she'd got the correct values. The end result was pretty good - I've now got better than 10/10 vision in both eyes. Not bad at my age.

Hermann
Is this something that was optional? I assume everyone's vision is optimized for 20/20...?
 
Is this something that was optional? I assume everyone's vision is optimized for 20/20...?
Sorry, I should have been clearer. The way acuity is described is somewhat confusing and a bit different in different countries. Over here acuity is optimized for 1.0 (or 100%). That's the same as 20/20 vision. With glasses my vision is about 1.4 (or 140%) in both eyes. That's a bit better than 20/15 vision.

Hermann
 
Hermann; Sounds like you have the needs and the data needed to get the right glasses for you. The only thing I'd change for me (who is a bungler when it comes to treating glasses badly) was to get a stainless frame as that 's a material I can silver braze back together if (or when) I break them!! Regards, Pat
 
Sorry, I should have been clearer. The way acuity is described is somewhat confusing and a bit different in different countries. Over here acuity is optimized for 1.0 (or 100%). That's the same as 20/20 vision. With glasses my vision is about 1.4 (or 140%) in both eyes. That's a bit better than 20/15 vision.

Hermann
...sorry to pester you with questions :p
So you have better than 'normal' distance vision with glasses? I'm intruigued by that and if so, whether it feels 'odd' when you are just walking around or whether you can spot birds more easily w/out binos etc.
 
...sorry to pester you with questions :p
So you have better than 'normal' distance vision with glasses? I'm intruigued by that and if so, whether it feels 'odd' when you are just walking around or whether you can spot birds more easily w/out binos etc.
Well, I'm not an eye doctor or optician, just an amateur in this field. So take everything I write with a (large) grain of salt ... :geek:

As I understand it, 20/20 vision is "normal", and just as there are people whose unaided acuity is worse, there are people whose acuity is better. In fact, it seems most people's unaided acuity is somewhat better than 20/20 while they are young. Clearly, calling 20/20 vision "normal" is an arbitrary decision. The limit of acuity in the unaided human eye seems to be around 20/10 to 20/8 vision (2.0/200% to 2.5/250%) in young people. It drops when you're getting older. (Source: Visual acuity - Wikipedia)

Now, if you require glasses, eye doctors and opticians over here try to get you to 20/20 (or 1.0/100%) vision. That's the goal. But they can also try to achieve better acuity if that's possible with your eyes. That's what my optician did. This doesn't appear to be possible in all cases. I was lucky.

Do I see more in the field? Well, yes, I think so. I've got a feeling I see more detail on birds, both with and without binoculars, than before with my old contacts. I also see "small specks in the sky" like soaring raptors that friends with worse acuity can't easily see. BTW, with my old contacts I had slightly less than 20/20 vision. If the glasses hadn't worked out I would have gotten new contacts.

I hope this all makes sense. And that it's reasonably accurate ... :cool:

Hermann
 
Well, I'm not an eye doctor or optician, just an amateur in this field. So take everything I write with a (large) grain of salt ... :geek:

As I understand it, 20/20 vision is "normal", and just as there are people whose unaided acuity is worse, there are people whose acuity is better. In fact, it seems most people's unaided acuity is somewhat better than 20/20 while they are young. Clearly, calling 20/20 vision "normal" is an arbitrary decision. The limit of acuity in the unaided human eye seems to be around 20/10 to 20/8 vision (2.0/200% to 2.5/250%) in young people. It drops when you're getting older. (Source: Visual acuity - Wikipedia)

Now, if you require glasses, eye doctors and opticians over here try to get you to 20/20 (or 1.0/100%) vision. That's the goal. But they can also try to achieve better acuity if that's possible with your eyes. That's what my optician did. This doesn't appear to be possible in all cases. I was lucky.

Do I see more in the field? Well, yes, I think so. I've got a feeling I see more detail on birds, both with and without binoculars, than before with my old contacts. I also see "small specks in the sky" like soaring raptors that friends with worse acuity can't easily see. BTW, with my old contacts I had slightly less than 20/20 vision. If the glasses hadn't worked out I would have gotten new contacts.

I hope this all makes sense. And that it's reasonably accurate ... :cool:

Hermann
Very clear. In fact at least 20/20 clear :)
Thanks!
 
Normal vision now is usually 6/6.
6 metres at 6 metres with a standard Snellen chart.

20/20 is 20ft at 20ft.

However, many with good eyesight achieve 20/15 or 6/4.5.

It is stated by experts that the best vision is 20/8 theoretically.
But clearly this is not quite right.

In a study of about 150 F14 U.S. navy Tomcat pilots the average vision was 20/8 with a best of about 20/6.5.
What was complained of is that opticians were not testing the pilots accurately enough and the glass factory standards are lax.

My eyes are lately poor, but up to about 5 years ago I could repeatedly see the difference using the 1/8 dioptre lens. My optician says he has had only three patients in about 30 years who used the 1/8 dioptre lens.
My eyes were not particularly good but my observational skills from decades of astro and planetary work means I notice things others don't.
Also my eye tests took 75 to 90 minutes not the inadequate 20 minutes most get.
In addition, the technician at the factory was asked to do the best he could for a crazy astronomer.
My last test before Covid gave 20/16, previously 20/15.

I could also repeatedly see 2.5 degrees change in a rather small amount of astigmatism.
My prescriptions were written up with double the normally prescribed standards.
So, I could detect +/- 1/16 dioptre focus and +/- 1.25 degrees astigmatism.

The Australian optics professor tested Aboriginal eyesight over a long period.
The normal vision for young aboriginals was 6/3 or 6/2.
With a best of 6/1.5 then an individual with 6/1.4 or 20/4.7.
The aboriginals were particularly good with binocular vision reading one line below moncular vision.

My own tests show a 10% improvement with my head braced rather than free.
It may be opticians nowadays used a braced head set up.

South American sailors reportedly could see much finer detail than Europeans perhaps in the 1700s.
The Europeans needed telescopes to see what the natives were seeing.
I think they probably came near the aboriginal Australian eyesight.

There is a different in acuity using one or both eyes.

I think the recent RAF pilot tests have been more rigid.

Car drivers require 20/40 vision to get a licence, but bus drivers have to do better.

RAF pilots in WW2 had on average 20/13 vision.

One can see quite well at 20/80, although not enough to drive a car.

So it is not only good eyesight that dominates viewing.
There is a very large amount in variation amongst people.

Some old drivers are found to have half of their vision missing.
I was almost mown down by an old lady, probably around 85, who drove at least one metre onto the pavement when going round a corner.
Luckily, I managed to get out of the way.
She should have had her licence withdrawn and her car crushed into a cube.

Then there are the drivers with one child in the back of Toyota Land Cruisers, with one hand on their mobile phones, and the other on the steering wheel going around a corner merrily chatting to their friends.
Another case for a rather larger crushed vehicle.

Regards from the urban jungle,
B.
 
My contacts seem to challenge the physiological ability of my eyes to resolve detail. Until yesterday, I hadn't found any objects barely visible with any of my 8x that my EDG 7x42 didn't render. I know from testing it with a booster that it is incredibly sharp.

However, looking at a brick hospital building with binoculars resting on a tripod, each of my 8x30 allowed me to see the horisontal mortar lines between the bricks, while I failed this with the 7x42. Since it has larger objectives, hence a better theoretical resolution, plus easier eye placement, I guessed the magnification was unsufficient for my eyes to resolve the mortar.

So I started counting. The hospital wall is 850 metres away. At that distance, one degree is 2πr/360, i.e. 14,83 metres. An arcsecond is 1/3600 of that, 0,4 cm.
A rough estimation suggests the thickness of the mortar is 16 mm which means 4 arcseconds. Multiplied with the magnification, this would measure up to 28 arcseconds for the 7x and 32 arcseconds for 8x. Converted to arcminutes, this is 28/60 = 0,47 for the 7x, and 32/60 = 0,53 for the 8x.
By inverting these values, the 0,53 arcminute suggests a visual acuity just below 1,9. If I had seen the mortar lines with the EDG, it would have meant a visual acuity above 2,1.

Despite my very sloppy use of formulas and definitions, this simple method appears to yield a useful and realistic value. Even with my best effort, I rarely see more than two, or at most three letters of the 2,0 line with spectacles. This might explain why I hit the proverbial wall trying to see the details of the brick wall with the otherwise incredible EDG 7x42. It also means that the central sharpness of my 8x30s is very good as well. I should add that these numbers are not monocular acuity, but binocular ditto.

//L
 
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Hi,

Resolution of lines is quite different to resolution of points.

Wires against the sky are seen below one arc second thick.
I think Barnard got 0.57 arcseconds from memory.

Black spots on a white background, I got 38 arcseconds or 34 arcseconds head braced.
Some get better than 20 arcseconds.

There are so many types of resolution.

But clearly, if comparing the same object such as mortar with different instruments, then the results are correct.

Although, with me tiredness makes a big difference.

So one should test at the same time in the same lighting with untired eyes.

All the best,
B.
 
That's what I meant with 'sloppy use of formulas and definitions'.
The hospital wall is made with red bricks, and so the contrast is low. Had it been yellow bricks, I might have seen them even at 7x.
It may be a coincidence, but the simplified and sketchy math delivered a very realistic value, completely in line with my actual VA.

It would have been impossible for me to resolve dots of 16x16 millimetres, so the fact it's long lines surely helped a lot. But then there's the less than ideal contrast, which may have nullified the advantage the lines provided.

I'll make another attempt with the 7x42, but to me it seems the loss of the mortar lines represents the disadvantage of the lesser magnification. I found the limit where 8x outresolves 7x with my visual acuity.
The better VA, the less need for magnification.

//L
 
Yes, the colours are critical.
It should be a black line on white.

A white line on black usually gives larger figures.

However, irradiation plays a part in bright light.

As for points, I found for my published astro article that two or more subvisual points can be seen as one visual point if the separation is less than 5x the particular resolution figure.
The same applies to subvisual stars seen as one star when two or more subvisual stars are close.

So one person at a long distance may not be seen but two or more people near each other may be readily seen.

So, I don't think the mortar test is the same as a Snellen chart, but may sometimes give similar results.

The background is all important.

Also the length of the mortar line is important.

I usually just divide by 206,000. (57.3 degrees is one radian, times 3,600 arcseconds in a degree).
850 metres or 850,000mm divided by 206,000 gives just over 4mm.

Anyway your present eyes and optics give fine results.

Regards,
B.
 

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