Fake 6x24 binoculars (5 Viewers)

[Binastro]

12x45 4".
8x30 6"

12x40 4.62" maximum resolving power. Pupil clearance 12mm. FOV 6 degrees. (Actually 5.85 or 5.9 deg from memory.
So 6x24 maybe 9.25 " 11.7 degrees 12mm pupil clearance.
Will try to refine.

7x50 6"
7x35 6"
10x50 4.5" (10x50 prisms were measured as 1/20th wave by my optical friends. Probably when Soviets had fine standards). (Their military Maksutovs also had 1/20th wave optics).
5x25 Foton 10"
5x25 folding mono 9"
8x20 9"
20x60 3"

 

[typo]

If you multiply the objective diameter by the resolution it will give you some idea of relative performance. Several of those listed come out at a figure of 180/D. This is the calculation used in the 2006 ISO for binoculars and 180 would be a pretty good. Significantly better than the ISO standard and fairly typical of the modern mid to high priced x42s I've tested. Others you list are not so good but I think only the 7x35 would fail the old ISO standard. However it would pass the 2016 revised standard. I'm told the 2016 ISO committee was chaired by the Russians. Perhaps just a coincidence.

I personally think the ISO standards are very lax and based on quite erroneous assumptions. I think the top makes are aware of this problem now and have improved their methodology. The best binoculars I'm seeing now are under 140/D for the full objective and at 116/D stopped down.

David

 

[Binastro]

Transparent sky last night. Moon, Earthshine and Venus lovely.

Soviet 6x24 measured field 11.7 degrees. May try again on other stars.
Ghosting/flare bad 4/10
Star images good, but angular magnification distortion severe near edge. Edge stars long tangential lines at edge.

Amplivid 6x24 12.6 deg although 12.15 deg stated, 212m at 1000m.
Glare/flare fair 6/10.
Star images good but 0.4 mag fainter than Soviet 6x24.
Less AMD near edge.
Edge better than Soviet.
Edge stars radial lines shorter than Soviet 6x24 tangential lines.
Estimate 75% transmission Soviet, 55% Amplivid.

The Amplivid is nicer to use, gentle image, relaxing if dim because of old mirrors. Also smaller, pocketable, but more fragile probably.
Dougie did a good job servicing the Amplivid. I don't know anyone who could do it now he has sadly gone.
An Amplivid with modern coatings would be something special, although delicate maybe.

 

[Stephen Prower]

If you multiply the objective diameter by the resolution it will give you some idea of relative performance.

David

So Binastro's possible figure of 222/D (9.25 x 24) for the Komz 6x24 is more realistic as a minimum figure for the Comet AX24 6x24 than the claimed figure in the Comet AX24 6x24 documentation of 168/D (7 x 24)?


Stephen

 

[Stephen Prower]

Ben and Stephen,

The solution is simple.

Get bigger houses.

The 11.5 degrees is about correct for Soviet 6x24.

Happy New Year.

Binastro

Thank you for the figure!

A Happy New Year to you too!

As for a bigger house, no just a warm attached garage would do!


Stephen

 

[Binastro]

Hi Stephen,
I measured the field of the Soviet 6x24 as 11.7 deg, but may try other stars to check.

It is more likely that the 6x24 is 4.62x40/24 or 7.7 arcseconds.
I think that the 12x40 and 6x24 may have the same eyepieces but instead of 6x20 it is 6x24. The 12x40s have two quite different eyepieces depending on date. Earlier is better and different weight.
It wouldn't surprise me if the 6x24 paperwork says 7 arcseconds., but I can't find these papers for some of the binoculars.

Maybe the Chinese fake does better on glare/flare with the much smaller field.
But it is a fake designed to cheat and hoodwink people.

Like the 4 plug extension lead I got that caught fire, luckily while I was watching, I just don't trust Chinese products at all.
I bought an expensive British alternative.

Nice clear weather lately but icy in the mornings. Very high pressure up to 1045 hPa.

 

[Stephen Prower]

Binastro

1. Many thanks for the further measurements! So we get closer to a possible source for the claimed <7* figure of resolution of the Comet AX24 6x24: the paperwork that came with the 1976 Komz 6x24 that the Comet is styled upon.

2. Whatever the true figure of resolution, I continue to be pleased with the binocular. The specification means subjectively that I require fewer milliseconds to get on the small garden bird, and the optics--helped by the compressing effect of the lower magnification?--are up in my eyes with the optics of a more expensive Opticron 8x binocular.

3. Time will of course tell whether I continue to enthuse in the same way in a month's time!

4. But since you say that you distrust Chinese products in themselves, not just by virtue of the way in which they are sold, I must in fairness to Comet provisionally, as above, report first impressions of performance, and not just details of specification, in reply to you.

5. You are right that the appearance, new condition and low price of the Comet AX24 6x24 will attract the attention of persons who know of the high reputation of the Komz 6x24. They certainly attracted my attention. But even if I had thought that it was a Komz, it was sold by my seller as a Comet.

In some eyes it would make a binocular a fake if it was sold as a Comet, but passed off by a seller as having the performance of a Komz. That is the issue with the documentation that we have been discussing. And it's a respectable opinion. But the offence smacks more to my eyes of a deception, utilising the Comet as a tool, not passing it off as a fake.

Finally we are at one that a binocular becomes a fake in ordinary language if it is passed off to a buyer as the real thing instead of a look-alike. Yet the difficulties continue. Even the 'Zeiss 8x30 Jenoptems' with six figure serial numbers that persons offer for sale on Ebay were, as I believe, manufactured in Japan as look-alikes, not fakes, hence the failure to give them seven-figure serial numbers.

So we come to Comet's practice of manufacturing look-alikes of so 'authentic' appearance that they bear the Komz logo and a 1976 Komz serial number, but nowhere at all the Comet logo.

I can't say that you're wrongly aggrieved.

Not all sellers will accurately describe them in their literature as 'Comet' binoculars.

6. Otherwise I share your experience of absent or indifferent Chinese quality control.

Quite apart from other goods, I've already mentioned, apropos, my disintegrating Comet AX11 7x30. And then, even more apropos, there's 8x30mark's faulty actual Comet AX24 6x24.

7. I have also found Chinese documentation often to be more than inaccurate: figures and details are plucked out of thin air. Sometimes they relate to a different product entirely: I had documentation with a monocular that related to a binocular.

We haven't pinned down the source of the inaccuracies as to Field of View and Close Focus Distance that we've found in the Comet AX24 6x24 documentation on the web, but we've certainly found the inaccuracies.

8. But the Comet AX11 7x30 performed quite well in my hands. It seemed to be manufactured to a reasonable standard, even if one of my three had been faultily assembled, and quite likely all three subject to little or no quality control.

And so far I've never had any problem returning a defective item that I have bought on Ebay.

So at a low price for the Comet AX24 6x24, I was prepared to punt.

Others quite reasonably wouldn't have been!


Stephen

 

[Stephen Prower]

Binastro; Ben; David

I report some new 'discoveries':

1. If you wish to see photos of the inside of a Chinese binocular plant, load:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-det...60240560982.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.FKvnIb

If your experience is the same as mine, to get to the relevant images:
* I clicked on the first image on the web page
* I got a blank new tab
* I closed the tab
* I then found that I was offered by way of an overlay 33 images, including 15 images of the 'Company', and 12 of the 'Production line'
* I kept on paging through the images, skipping over numerous repeated images, and eventually managed (I think!) to see all 33 images.

As I gather the name of the company in question is Yingtan Aoxiang Photoelectricity Co., Ltd., or Aoxiang for short.

Aoxiang is described as a 'China (Mainland) | Manufacturer, Trading Company'.

2. I have now found a webpage for the Comet 6x24 Individual Focus type that does not repeat the specification for the Central Focus type:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Best-selling-6x24-binoculars-with-bak4_60133917854.html

The webpage gives more plausible figures for the Field of View, namely 8*, and the Close Focus Distance, namely 3m.

Unfortunately the webpage supplies no figure for the resolution.

Binastro will observe particularly that the photos on the webpage feature a binocular that bears no markings at all apart from the figures '6x24'.

Ie it is left to the customer to add the Mauser cosmetics later!

3. Otherwise by way of odds & sods:

a) I still haven't found any documentation on the web for the Comet 6x24 Central Focus type that lists figures other than 10.8* for the FOV, and 1.8m for the Close Focus Distance

b) I have found on Ebay figures of 368g for the weight of the Comet 6x24 Individual Focus type, and 520g for the weight of the Centre Focus type

c) I have found a photo on the web of another Comet 6x24 Central Focus type that bears a 'unique' serial number, in its case 762109.

Stephen

 

[Bencw]

Hi Stephen,

Thanks for the links and info.

 

[Stephen Prower]

Binastro Ben David

Update

Cosmetics

1. Someone may have listened, certainly in part, to Binastro's complaint!

The illustrations on the UK distributor's webpage no longer show 'Made in USSR', or the Komz logo, on the body of the Comet AX24 6x24. They no longer show 'Made in USSR' on the case:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/COMET-6x2...019177?hash=item281e4c75a9:g:UO8AAOSw9NdXsZNh

The binocular still though fails to carry the Comet logo. And the serial number is still a 76**** Komz pattern number.

Performance

2. I have now carried out three field 'trials' of my Comet 6x24 in mixed country, two of them lasting some three hours. I have also used it a number of other times either from inside the house, or when walking out of doors.

The outdoor temperature has sometimes been around -4*C. The focussing has stiffened up, but not become unacceptably stiff.

3. The binocular has held up well.

In particular the focussing mechanism, as reported by Binastro, I believe, sometimes to be the weak point of Chinese binoculars, has so far performed satisfactorily. Whether it will continue to do so is of course critical!

However the supplied strap has proved to be insecure. The ends are held together by the usual double-headed pin. But the heads are not close enough together. I have therefore replaced the strap.

[As a minor issue, when I replaced the strap, I had difficulty passing one of the ends through the corresponding loop for it on the body.]

I took the opportunity to replace the guard at the same time. The crude method of connecting the guard to the straps meant that it did not fit properly. I replaced it with a home-made guard.

4. My colour sensitivity, as I have said before, is low. I am red-green colourblind. Subject to this the binocular seems to my eyes to have a colour cast. It might even be the well-known yellow cast of Soviet binoculars.

I have to pass on the accuracy of rendition of colours.

5. I continue to be pleased with the specification. The good depth of field is to be expected from the 6x24 format. It means for instance that, as a house binocular, the Comet gives markedly the best view through old window glass of all my binoculars.

But the field of view of circa 9.5* is down to the credit of the designer of the eyepiece. And I believe that the close focus distance of circa 12ft (3.7m), and the good useability of the outer area of the field of view, will be down to the credit of the designer too.

As the downside of 6x magnification, the Comet begins to run out of puff, where picking out the points of i/d of little birds is concerned, at a distance of very roughly about 50yd (46m). By colour and pattern, for birds such as Dunnocks & Chiffchaffs the distance might be less; for birds such as Blue tits & Goldfinches more (#).

6. I continue as to optics to confine myself solely to a personal impression of resolution, brightness, and contrast. My standard of comparison is a well-spoken-of mid-price porro binocular.

I find the result even of side-by-side comparisons of brightness difficult to decide upon, so just say that the Comet compares fairly well as to brightness.

The test was to see how soon after dawn I could bring the branches of a tree near to my house into focus. A potential confuser, which I attempted to allow for by quickly repeating successive tests, was changing light levels. But I had to leave a certain interval between tests whilst my eyes accommodated.

The Comet does not fall far short of the mid-price porro likewise in the comparison of resolution and contrast. The result was I think closer.


Stephen


(#) I paced out 60yd for Bullfinches viewed out of doors feeding on Fat hen. I could still i/d Blue tits against a background of bare thickset bushes at a greater distance than 60yd from me. I began to have difficulty with Dunnocks in Brambles at maybe 20-30yd nearer towards me

 

[Stephen Prower]

Binastro Ben David

Allbinos test of Comet IF 6x24

We now have an Allbinos test dated 10 May of the individual focus Comet AX8 6x24!:

http://www.optyczne.pl/321-Test_lornetki-Test_Comet_6x24.html

I have read the test as translated by Google into English, but expect that most English language speakers who are interested will prefer to wait for Allbino's own translation to appear.

Google's translation is however perfectly adequate for reading off most of the test results. I note in particular a measured Field of View of 9.10 +/- 0.04 degrees for the Comet IF 6x24 as compared with a manufacturer's claimed Field of 10.8 degrees.

There are extensive comments by visitors, imperfectly translated by Google into English, on the Polish site. In case Allbinos do not translate and include the comments on their English language site, I pass on the information in case anybody reading this post may wish to visit the Polish site in order to read them.


Stephen


PS While I am posting, I follow up previous posts by mentioning:

1. No Ebay vendor in Britain is currently offering the central focus Comet AX11 6x24

2. My own central focus Comet AX11 6x24 continues to hold up and perform well in use

 

[Stephen Prower]

Binastro

Misleading labelling of Comet AX11 6x24

I notice from the images that accompany an EBay offer of the Comet AX11 6x24 CF from China that the 'Komz' type labelling that you complained of, to list the relevant markings on my own Comet AX11:
* 'MADE IN USSR'
* Komz logo
* Komz 1976 pattern serial number: 'NO.:762297'
* '6 x 24'
has now been replaced by just the two 'neutral' markings:
* 'No:130839'
* '6 x 24'.

Ie since my last post on the subject, the Komz-pattern serial number has gone too.

Should Comet now finally also add the markings:
* 'Made in China'
* Comet logo
the transformation will be complete.

Here's the URL of the Chinese Ebay offer:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/COMET-6x2...482674?hash=item2cafd43b72:g:5IgAAOSwMtxXrZh~

I repeat: Could your strictures have been listened to in China?!


Stephen

 

[Binastro]

Hi Stephen,
Thanks for the last two posts.

With a bit of luck all Chinese fake binoculars might now disappear.
They seem to be listening to me; I doubt it. But a nice thought. Although an individual maker with some scruples might.

In the 1960s and 1970s the Chinese products I dealt with, and for which we had sole European rights, and the Chinese state exporters dealers were very honest indeed.

But in the last thirty years there is only Chinese growth at any cost. Environment, safety, advertising, quality control, complete ignoring of patents, designs, trademarks and so on. The claim that they do not understand copyright etc. is not true. They know exactly what they are doing.

The photo in your link from Poland shows the Amplivid and the 6x24 Chinese.
That is why I prefer the Amplivid to the Komz 6x24, even though transmission is about 50%.
The site says 6x34, a typo, but the transmission is good and 25mm not 24mm. I suspect the Russian one is 24mm.
The field is way down, but field sizes are often fiction.

There is a new Chinese airliner to compete with the Airbus A320s and Boeing 737 due in service 2020 probably. I wouldn't go on it even if the flights were free. (Mind you, I wouldn't go with Ryanair either).

 

[Stephen Prower]

Binastro Ben David

Allbinos test of Comet IF 6x24

Allbinos' own translation into English of the test of the inidvidual focus Comet 6x24 is now out:

http://www.allbinos.com/321-binoculars_review-Comet_6x24.html

The findings make me feel even luckier that the centre focus model that I purchased is a 'good' one.

I don't notice any deficiencies in its optical or ergonomic performance compared with a well spoken of middle range binocular (Opticron 8x32 SR.GA) that I own.

But persons' sensitivity to small, and perhaps sometimes even greater, differences in the two areas does, as I gather from other threads, vary greatly.

I add that Allbinos have not translated and included the comments of visitors upon the original Polish language report of the findings of the test.


Stephen

 

[Binastro]

Stephen,
I would think that there is a lot of sample variation with this product from maybe awful to good.
Unlikely to be much quality control.
Also I suspect some will be out of alignment when new.

 

[comaderek]

If u go on zeiss website they post fake models and what to look for.

 

[Stephen Prower]

Spotting a Komz 6x24 lookalike or fake

comaderek

Not so easy should you just have an Ebay photo to go on, and like me have never seen a Komz 6x24 in the flesh. Worse if you have never seen any other Soviet binocular in the flesh.

In hand though the Comet 6x24 Centre Focus is obviously a new lookalike. Here are 8x30mark's close-up photographs:

https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/550791-chinese-copy-russian-6x24-pic-heavy/

The markings on mine are the same except for a different Komz 76**** pattern serial number.

A Google image search on string <Komz 6x24 binocular> throws up a bewildering variety of genuine Komz 6x24 markings -- plus the markings of 8x30mark's lookalike! So who's to say the markings on a lookalike or fake aren't yet another of Komz's genuine markings? But then why would a faker bother to invent a novel set of markings anyway. So you're back to the look of the binocular in hand.

I could list some of the crudities of my Comet 6x24 that are apparent when it is viewed in hand, but although it's unlikely given the Komz 6x24's high reputation, that it will manifest similar crudities, I have not, as I said, ever seen a Komz 6x24 so as to be sure.

Trying to be helpful, I will though by way of exception point out the crudity of the layout of the markings of the Comet 6x24 before Comet dropped, or seems to have dropped, the Komz logo and 'Made in USSR' inscription from its production. You can see the distinctive fonts that I don't think Soviet or Russian manufacturers have ever used. Also the incongruous mixture of sans-serif and serif fonts.

That's all I can say.


Stephen

 

[Stephen Prower]

History of Comet's Komz 6x24 lookalike

Ben Binastro David

History of Comet's Komz 6x24 lookalike

1. Thanks to Allbinos, we now have the specifications of the Comet 6x24 IF apart from the weight.

Allbinos have not re-measured the weight as given in the manufacturer's known unreliable specifications.

For what it's worth, the weight in question is 368 grams.

2. I have managed to buy cheaply the 'Brass' finish Bedell version of the 6x24 IF.

I've weighed the Bedell 6x24 IF with a reasonably accurate spring balance to weigh 16oz/454g (as compared with 18oz/510g for my Comet 6x24 CF).

Externally the design of the Bedell 6x24 IF seems to be identical to the design of the Comet 6x24 IF.

Both have reticules.

I suspect that they are both built to a common military specification.

Possibly the top brass get the brass finish Bedell version, and the squaddies the black finish Comet version!

3. Lacking a Comet 6x24 IF, I proceed on the basis that the Bedell 6x24 IF is indeed an identical design of binocular to the Comet 6x24 IF.

4. A possibly significant difference between the Bedell 6x24 IF (and no doubt the Comet 6x24 IF) and the Comet 6x24 CF is the area of the top plate of the prism housing. I attach a photo.

(The similar top plate of the Comet 6x24 IF to the top plate of the Bedell 6x24 IF can be seen on the webpage:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMET-6x24-...FMC-HD-Eyepiece-Porro-Prism-Bag-/311645847979 )

5. It is unfortunate that we still do not have a measurement of the field of view of the Comet 6x24 CF to compare with Allbinos' figure of 9.10 +/- 0.04 degrees for the Comet 6x24 IF.

However the field of view of the Bedell 6x24 IF and of the Comet 6x24 CF is to my eyes much the same.

6. The question therefore arises:

Does the greater area of the top plate of the Comet 6x24 CF than the top plate of the Comet 6x24 IF reflect a bigger prism, and so (if I understand rightly the design of binoculars) a wider field of view, than the field of view of the Comet 6x24 IF?

Or may Comet in designing the Comet 6x24 CF have, for cosmetic purposes, sleeved the optics of the Comet 6x24 IF into an oversized Komz 6x24 lookalike body?

7. As I write this post I have discovered the probable answer to the question.

From an offer for sale on Ebay, as confirmed from Alibaba's website, I see that Comet have recently redesigned the Comet 6x24 CF. The new Comet 6x24 CF seems in particular to have an identical body shape to the Comet 6x24 IF*.

This offers a powerful hint that the old Comet 6x24 CF did indeed comprise Comet 6x24 IF optics wrapped up cosmetically in Komz 6x24 lookalike clothing.

I post separately with the news.


Stephen


* See: http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMET-6x24m...482674?hash=item2cafd43b72:g:5IgAAOSwMtxXrZh~

 

[Stephen Prower]

New Comet AX24 6x24 Central focus

Ben Binastro David

New Comet AX24 6x24 Central focus

1. Comet have now seemingly redesigned the Comet AX19 6x24 Central focus as the new Comet AX24 6x24 Central focus:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/COMET-6x24m...482674?hash=item2cafd43b72:g:5IgAAOSwMtxXrZh~

https://aoxiang.en.alibaba.com/prod...l_binocular.html?spm=a2700.8304367.0.0.4oCTKw

The Komz 6x24 lookalike body has gone, and been replaced by what looks to my eyes an identical body to the body of the Comet AX8 6x24 Individual focus.

2. As noted in a previous post the Soviet-style markings that appeared on earlier Comet AX19 6x24 CF's were removed from later Comet AX19 6x24 CF's.

3. They do listen to Binastro in China!


Stephen


Edit: I have edited this post to supply current 'AX' model numbers. Please ignore model numbers that I have given in the past. I am fallible: I think I have sometimes used AX11 (Comet 7x30) by mistake for my Komz lookalike. On the other hand I suspect that AX24 was originally one of the model numbers for the Komz lookalike, so accurately given by me at the time, although the new model has now taken it over

 

[Binastro]

Hi Stephen.

These binoculars look completely different, although the eyepieces might be the same or similar.

The bottom 2 stars in Ursa Major bowl are about 7.9 degrees apart.
The top 2 stars 10.37 degrees.
But one must not look at an inclined angle as the fields seem smaller. I.e. one must look square on.

Of course they listen to me in China.

P.S.
What about dumping to destroy other countries industries, and rigged exchange rates to add to my list of complaints.
Will they stop these?

And building man made islands to expand territory.
Also buying up mines to corner the market for rare elements.

Mind you Amazon destroyed bookshops, then opened their own.

Also the internet destroys millions of people's jobs, then warn us that we must just accept it.

P.P.S.
1977 Russian 6x24.
490.3g or 17.3 ounces.

Post Offices have accurate scales.
I took my kilo weight into the P.O. and measured it on all 5 scales.

It was so way out, I bought a set of high quality weights for calibrating electronic scales.