Falcon - sensitive species (1 Viewer)

[Kaan Ozgencil]

Hello everybody,
I came across this falcon in a deep and nearly inaccesible canyon somewhere in Turkey a couple of days ago. It was flushed by another raptor and spent some time soaring at high altitude before it flew away. I cannot with certainty tell whether it is a Lanner or a Saker. I'm not going to give the exact location because both species are highly sensitive, but the habitat seemed to be suitable for both species. I would appreciate any help with the ID.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Without checking a book, doesn't Lanner have dark, underwing coverts?

 

[THE_FERN]

Without checking a book, doesn't Lanner have dark, underwing coverts?

Other way around I think. ...so it's a lanner

 

[tconzemi]

They are difficult! Imho the spotted flanks, the heavily marked greater coverts and the overall very heavy built are all good for Saker (which I have not seen for years)

 

[Butty]

Just checked, I was right

Could you give your source that shows adult lanner having darker underwing-coverts than adult saker? (given that these not-very-dark coverts rule out juvenile of both species).

 

[Andy Adcock]

Could you give your source that shows adult lanner having darker underwing-coverts than adult saker? (given that these not-very-dark coverts rule out juvenile of both species).

Was looking at my own shots from Africa but hadn't realised it was unique to juveniles.

 

[Steve Lister]

Without checking a book, doesn't Lanner have dark, underwing coverts?

Juvs of both have dark underwing coverts but adults just have a surrounding bar, broader on Saker. I would go for this being an adult Lanner on the basis of the weak underwing bar.

 

[Kaan Ozgencil]

Thanks so much for the replies. Here is the reply I received from Dick Forsman. He thinks it's a Saker of the saceroides variant. He, too, found the bird challenging and said the bird has features of both species. Thanks again for taking your time to write replies.

Hi Kaan,
Thanks for mail.
I understand you had troubles identifying this bird, I also find it very
difficult!
It clearly combines features of the two species, Lanner and Saker, and
this makes it challenging. However, my feeling is, that it is a Saker,
despite the yellow crown. I have seen Sakers like this before, but not
in the wild. This kind of Saker has been described in Glutz et al. as
"saceroides-Kleid" (see reference list in my book). More recently I have
pondered upon these birds, and possibly they could be hybrids between
Saker and Lanner, which would explain their phenotype. Large falcon
hybrids are widely known, and in an area where both species are rare
this could be a possibility? Despite the Lanner-like head, the bird also
lacks the barring of the flanks, "trousers" and underwing coverts, which
you find in most adult Lanners. Also the structure of the bird is more
like a Saker, with heavy body and broad wings. My guess is that this is
the female of the pair?
I hope you or someone else has the chance to follow up these birds to
get more information and perhaps more images. It is definitely an
interesting case which needs to be studied in detail. I would definitely
be interested in getting more information about these birds, too.
Best wishes and good luck with these birds,
Dick

 

[THE_FERN]

Other way around I think. ...so it's a lanner

(I should note that this didn't look like lanner to me but Collins / Andy both pointed to dark underwing as an id feature (Collins shows it for saker))

 

[Butty]

Collins / Andy both pointed to dark underwing as an id feature (Collins shows it for saker)

Again... This is a misreading both of Collins and of the comments given above as regards adult birds.

 

[THE_FERN]

Again... This is a misreading both of Collins and of the comments given above as regards adult birds.

Judge for oneself. Here's the Collins plate. Broad dark band for saker, narrow (i.e. might appear missing) for lanner

 

[Butty]

Again... You didn't say band, hence confusion. Andy referred to darker underwing-coverts, which is a juvenile-only feature, as he makes clear in a later comment.

 

[Vukas Vučković]

A beautiful Lanner Falcon

 

[tconzemi]

A beautiful Lanner Falcon

Please read post #8 carefully and comment, I fully respect your opinion but at this point we should explain why.

 

[Vukas Vučković]

Please read post #8 carefully and comment, I fully respect your opinion but at this point we should explain why.

Sorry, missed it. To be honest I haven’t analysed it much as it was a bit late where I am. Didn’t have ‘saceroides’ in mind and It looked alright for a Lanner (really not a good idea to go on first impressions when dealing with taxa like these). Mr Forsman’s insight is very interesting and eye opening. I didn’t know ‘saceroides’ could be such an ID pitfall. I too hope to learn more about these birds so please, Kaan, keep us posted if you get any new info/photos.

 

[jogresh]

These are labelled saceroides:

Saker Falcon (Falco cherrug saceroides), best photos. Birds of Kazakhstan.

Probably breeds in Altai, in winter occurs in south-eastern Kazakhstan. Probably birds nesting in Eastern Tien Shan relate to this race.

birds.kz