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Grey Squirrels v's birds/wildlife, so either we love them or hate them!! (3 Viewers)

Peewit

Once a bird lover ... always a bird lover
Hi there

What do you think of this article from on of the local newspapers today?

I am interested in peoples point of view here?

Grey Squirrels:

Ah, aren't they pretty" - that is one of the most popular phrases used by young children and old ladies as they watch grey squirrels in the park on a Sunday afternoon.

Well their reaction is understandable; grey squirrels with their dark oval eyes and bushy tails are certainly "pretty", but to my mind they would be far prettier if they were still confined to North America where they came from in the first place.

When the grey squirrel was introduced to this country by misguided animal lovers in 1876, it was thought to be a welcome addition to British fauna.

In truth it has been a disaster. Not simply because the grey squirrel devours birds' eggs, steals bird food, eats the bulbs in our gardens, ruins our lawns and damages the trees we love, but also because it has driven our indigenous red squirrel - the original Squirrel Nutkin, which is far prettier and much less aggressive than the grey - to the brink of extinction.

So out of hand is the situation that the Department For Environment, Food And Rural Affairs (DEFRA) has come up with a solution. With the help of scientists in the Forestry Commission and the U.S. it wants to develop an oral contraceptive for grey squirrels - to stop the present five million grey squirrels becoming ten million in five years' time.

The problem is that DEFRA will not get its scheme into operation for at least five years and by then it could be too late, because the red squirrel, now mainly holed up in small woodlands in Northern England and Scotland as its American cousin runs riot, could already be extinct.

But even if we ignore this important time lag, the notion of giving oral contraceptives to squirrels is absolutely dotty. The intention is to mix a contraceptive chemical into food for grey squirrels. What about other wildlife and what about those squirrels rejecting the food?

A feature of squirrels is that they collect and store food in caches for later use. What happens when grey squirrels store the drugged up food and other birds and animals find the food store?

No, the idea of contraceptives for squirrels is not only ridiculously expensive, it is a nonstarter. Which means we are left with the only real solution: a nationwide cull in which squirrels are shot.

I understand why many animal lovers will resist this apparently drastic answer. DEFRA itself - the organisation that happily insisted on the needless slaughter of seven million sheep, cattle and pigs during the 2001 foot-and-mouth outbreak - dares not suggest a cull in case it is accused by the welfare lobby of inhumanity.

But I'm sorry to say that logic - and the plight of the red squirrel - dictates that robust measures are the only option. We have to accept that culling is sometimes called for in conservation.

The trouble is that where animals and wildlife are concerned, reality has been suspended. In our metropolitan society, all furry animals except rats are sacred whatever damage they might inflict, so none of them can ever be killed. But nature is far more complicated than this.

We are now so divorced from the real world where animals are concerned that, when we buy junk food such as chicken nuggets, we don't pause to think they are made from hens kept and killed in the worst possible conditions.

Our meat from supermarkets is so wrapped and packaged and sanitised that any notion of animal slaughter is removed from it.

And this attitude applies to wildlife, too, promoted and encouraged by animal charities (who often depend on squirrel-loving old ladies for their financial bequests) and the politically correct BBC in its nature documentaries.

On the Springwatch programme, for example, the birdwatching presenter Bill Oddie has advocated feeding grey squirrels with peanuts.

How he squares this with research showing that grey squirrels and their passion for eggs are a major reason for plummeting population levels of birds including the nightingale, songthrush, spotted flycatcher and willow tit, I cannot understand. Perhaps he's more interested in viewing figures than wildlife conservation.

As I say, the answer to the grey squirrel problem is not a fanciful high-falutin' contraceptive, it is far more simple: a proper cull should be organised, not for five years' time, but for tomorrow.

The reasons are clear. Apart from eating the eggs of songbirds and woodland birds, grey squirrels do an enormous amount of damage to growing trees and shrubs, causing million of pounds worth of damage each year. In Dublin's Phoenix Park, they destroyed 80 per cent of the saplings.

The damage to red squirrels is two-fold. The greys chase the reds about aggressively during the breeding season, making them too stressed to breed.

In addition, the greys carry a disease called squirrel poxvirus, which does little harm to themselves, but is extremely contagious and almost always fatal to reds.

In a properly organised cull, the grey squirrels should be trapped, shot and - I know this may offend some animal lovers - preferably eaten.

Squirrels are regularly eaten in the U.S. and it is surely time that Britain's host of celebrity chefs stopped patting each other on the back and did something useful like developing squirrel casserole, baked squirrel, smoked squirrel and squirrel pate.

The meat tastes like a cross between chicken and rabbit and earlier in the year I was given an absolutely delicious squirrel burger. In Shropshire there are already some butchers who sell jointed squirrel, which I have eaten in a casserole - sadly I cannot give names and addresses because of animal rights activists to whom Britain's traditions of free speech seem anathema.

One of the simplest ways of introducing a cull in the countryside would be to use the so-called cross-compliance mechanism on the payment of farm subsidies.

At the moment farmers are required to undertake a number of environmental activities on their farms to qualify for their subsidies.

Grey squirrel control should simply be added to this 'cross compliance' list. In other words, all landowners receiving agricultural subsidies would be required to control the grey squirrels on their land.

At the moment the hard work of saving Britain's last red squirrels is being undertaken by private individuals who understand that wildlife conservation is not simply about being nice to fluffy animals.

On Anglesey, a cull of greys is proving successful. Since 1998 more than 7,500 have been culled and it is hoped final success will come in 2008 and the island's residents reds will be safe. Those involved have shown that a cull is possible and works.

Similarly in the Lake District the battle to save the reds is being fought by private individuals, with help from the holiday village organisation Center Parcs, when DEFRA and the National Trust (which owns 25 per cent of the Lakes) should be leading the way.

Jerry Moss, who has the title of red squirrel ranger at a Center Parcs' refuge for more than 150 healthy wild reds, is quite right when he says: "The people who sit behind desks making decisions simply don't realise how endangered the red squirrel is.

"We need more than volunteers, we need more people like me, only paid for by the Government. Without this, the grey will be out of control and the red squirrel is doomed. There is little time left, the situation is desperate."

So, pretty as they are, please don't feed the grey squirrels as Bill Oddie suggests. These tree rats really are a menace. Regards
Kathy
 
Very typical of the frustrations exhibited in many nations regarding non native species damage. The frustration of loss and the proclamation of slang such as tree rats for grays and red squirrels for the other is typical of a non governmental declaration of war .

If it is labeled inferior , it is easier to kill. They have my sympathy on the ordeal and regardless of which way they decide to go little more then a dent will be made in the problem without a sustainable solution based on sound science.

Many species of the northern tiers step up reproduction rates when their populations start to feel the strain of culling.

Americas coyotes for example double up on litters per year when hunting and culling is increased thereby mandating a never ending process of culling with little next to nothing gained from a population based perspective.

I am willing to bet the grays will do the same.

Good luck to all concerned.

Or as a politician would say as he stood watching his constituencies fight over a issue , you are my friends and I stand behind you firmly, ( as he slips out the back door from the room).


JR.
 
I haven't time to read the lot. I think it suggests introducing a desiese that only affects grey squirrels, rather like the myxymitosis for rabbits. It seems to work quite well with the rabbits, even though there are still millions of them! Sounds like a good idea to me. Will this have an effect on animals that predate on squirrels as its main source of food?
 
I'm not a fan by any means, but it's simply way too late.

Culling is totally impractical - you could never do it on a sufficient scale and with blanket access to even make much of a dent - just think of all those squirrels in gardens that you could never get at. And look what happened when they tried to get rid of Ruddy Ducks. You've got councils trying to stop them, never mind 'animal-lovers'.

Contraceptive/disease - there is nothing that you could introduce that would not affect Reds and probably other rodent species (Dormice?). They're too similar. Also, again, you'd have the problem of scale and access.

Also, for all the damage that is attributed to Grey Squirrels, there is vrtually no hard evidence backing this up (nest robbing etc). They undoubtedly do rob nests, kill chicks etc (I've seen it first hand, caught in the act), but there's no quantitative data to say how big or little a problem this is. Mice, voles, weasels and stoats do much the same thing, and it's hard to tell which one is the culprit unless you actually see them at it. And finally, whatever damage they do to wildlife/plants etc, it is highyl likely that they're doing nothing that Reds didn't do either. Reds are known nest predators, bark-strippers, bulb-diggers etc. Greys have simply replaced them and are probably not any better or worse in an ecosystem sense.
 
Kathy I agree with you whole heartedly,go for it every little bit helps,I like the idea of making them infertile,maybe that would work over a 10 year period,as long as it does'nt affect any other animal except maybe Mink!!!
 
Very typical of the frustrations exhibited in many nations regarding non native species damage. The frustration of loss and the proclamation of slang such as tree rats for grays and red squirrels for the other is typical of a non governmental declaration of war .

JR.

Hi JR

It is exactly that, I mean, the frustration of allowing a non-native species into another country, so it takes over everything, causes a lot of damage, and affects more closely associated members of similar species. It is depressing
:-C

I cannot see the Red and the Grey in the same league as each other at all. What made me laugh is the Reds, I had in 2 of my properties where so polite on my birdtable in Scotland, and eat from the feeders.
The Greys do the same thing, they chew everything, and they eat the feeders too and destroy any containers that food is place in. They monopolize everything and dominate the garden area so nothing else feels comfortable in the same area. They are Tree Rats and that is what I see them as myself. They are so destructive in their behaviour, and it is hard to get rid of them once you have them in your life - you have mind games with them, and they always lose each time, 'darn' pests that they are. Mmmmm....

Have you noticed that all wildlife/fauna which ends up in Britain tend to be very over invasive, or is it just me and my vivid imagination working overtime. There is a definite problem with many species being destructive, and monopolizing to the degree closely so all associated native species suffer a lot. :-C

It makes me wonder why people in the past have made bad choices in the past, as to how, and why they introduce some species to the UK in the first place. :-C

Just a thought here ;)

I haven't time to read the lot. I think it suggests introducing a disease that only affects grey squirrels, rather like the myxymitosis for rabbits. It seems to work quite well with the rabbits, even though there are still millions of them! Sounds like a good idea to me. Will this have an effect on animals that predate on squirrels as its main source of food?

Hi boddie

I remember myxymitosis hitting in the rabbit population in the 70's, and it looked quite horrible to see the animal suffer and go downhill all to slowly, so it starved, and was easily prayed on. (showing my age here)

I wondered how myxymitosis disease affected BoP's who preyed on the rabbits. I never thought of that until now. I wonder how often a BoP catches a Grey Squirrel in its life. ;)
I wonder if myxymitosis have affected birds in a big way in the past. I have to admit I have never heard any written detail or word of mouth about the subject at all. Interesting :-C

The trouble us, I think with any introduction of any disease that is introduced will cause problems for other animals or a side effect on them which will be long term. So I think doing that is to risky. Maybe cause birth defects in other species etc.

I think all the Councils in the UK (wishful thinking) should put some theories together, and put money aside for it.
Making squirrels infertile would be a good idea, but all too time consuming. The animal rights people would be upset but it will get to the point that they will be more upset for the Red Squirrels becoming extinct at the end of the day. So it really needs all the pros and the cons weighed out to see what is the best route. It means all of the UK taking action and not just certain areas. Even public outcry may be a good thing, and surveys should be considered about the problem we have with Grey Squirrels.
Too much wishful thinking going on here. If only the problem had not been left so long in the first place. :-C

I'm not a fan by any means, but it's simply way too late.

Culling is totally impractical - you could never do it on a sufficient scale and with blanket access to even make much of a dent - just think of all those squirrels in gardens that you could never get at. And look what happened when they tried to get rid of Ruddy Ducks. You've got councils trying to stop them, never mind 'animal-lovers'.

Contraceptive/disease - there is nothing that you could introduce that would not affect Reds and probably other rodent species (Dormice?). They're too similar. Also, again, you'd have the problem of scale and access.

Also, for all the damage that is attributed to Grey Squirrels, there is virtually no hard evidence backing this up (nest robbing etc). They undoubtedly do rob nests, kill chicks etc (I've seen it first hand, caught in the act), but there's no quantitative data to say how big or little a problem this is. Mice, voles, weasels and stoats do much the same thing, and it's hard to tell which one is the culprit unless you actually see them at it. And finally, whatever damage they do to wildlife/plants etc, it is highly likely that they're doing nothing that Reds didn't do either. Reds are known nest predators, bark-strippers, bulb-diggers etc. Greys have simply replaced them and are probably not any better or worse in an ecosystem sense.

Poecile

Hi there, yes culling is an expensive habit in any form as the problem with Greys has got out of hand now. What I in my last paragraph to boddie above is based on well if only and why not's. It has been left far too long.

Rodents and members of the Rodent family would be affected by food placed outside to kill squirrels, and that will be a disaster as already mentioned here, as species like the Doormice etc.. are struggling to survive too.

Yes lots of animals do pray of bird eggs such, yes Red Squirrels, Magpies, members of the Crow family, Mink, and even Hedgehogs so there is a lot of other suspects who are interested in bird eggs too. At least these species are native to our country though, and are not in population overdrive as the Grey Squirrel is at the moment.

I would rather a hedgehog each a bird egg than a squirrel if given the choice on the matter. The Greys are the imposter's after all.

Kathy I agree with you whole heartedly,go for it every little bit helps,I like the idea of making them infertile,maybe that would work over a 10 year period,as long as it does'nt affect any other animal except maybe Mink!!!

Hi Bob

Make them infertile would be the best idea so they can live out their lives, and their numbers will reduce over the next 10 year period. Yes, minks are an issue with birds eggs too.

As you say there must be a solution for this problem, and as you say it is thinking, and planning what would be the best thing, and then make it a universal issue for all Councils and Wildlife Groups to debate. The money and time put in to all the research for a better life for the Reds at the end of the day.
More wishful thinking here, as I said above.

A lot of thoughts here on the subject, and others will have other ideas too. ;)

I hope I made sense here answering so many people at one time. ;)

Regards
Kathy
 
Actually the contraceptive method could easily be used in non-Red Squirrel areas and would enable pressure on Greys throughout the UK, not just at the Red-Squirrel borders where Grey "no-go" zones are already beginning to be set up. Oral contraceptives have been used on other mammal species, they are not a new idea. They are fairly effective in humans, though nowhere near widely enough used by this pernicious and destructive species.

The biggest enemies the Reds have apart from the Greys are the "its too late" and "its too cruel" defeatists.

John
 
"Grey Squirrels v's birds/wildlife, so either we love them or hate them"

I obviously regret the effects the greys are having on reds but if love or hate are the only options on offer, I would have to pass.

I hate xenophobia though.
 
Actually the contraceptive method could easily be used in non-Red Squirrel areas and would enable pressure on Greys throughout the UK, not just at the Red-Squirrel borders where Grey "no-go" zones are already beginning to be set up. Oral contraceptives have been used on other mammal species, they are not a new idea. They are fairly effective in humans, though nowhere near widely enough used by this pernicious and destructive species.

The biggest enemies the Reds have apart from the Greys are the "its too late" and "its too cruel" defeatists.

John

So how do you stop any other rodent eating them, or the chemicals passing up the food chain? Yes, they are effective on humans, but have you seen the latest figures for human sperm counts? Have you heard what one of the prime suspects is for this dramatic fall? Synthetic hormones excreted into the environment by women taking the human contraceptive pill. Hormone treatments are a blunt tool, as hormones tend to work across a broad spectrum - you cannot make them species specific as many species use the same kind of hormones to regulate their cycles. And with Squirrels being common and also a prey species, you'd get a build-up effect in whatever eats them or the other rodents that get contaminated.

Also, who would pay for these 5 million doses of contraceptives to be laid and checked? Are you willing for it to be added on to your council tax? Do you think all of your neighbours feel the same? Do you think they'll vote for the councillor or MP suicidal enough to suggest it?

It IS too late for Reds in the UK. That is a simple fact. The biggest enemy they have is not defeatists (aka 'realists'), it is those with the mentality that is for all to see right now in the Eagle owl debate - 'what a lovely addition to our fauna, I'm sure they'll do no harm, they seem to get along ok with these kinds of species in their natural range'...
 
So how do you stop any other rodent eating them, or the chemicals passing up the food chain? Yes, they are effective on humans, but have you seen the latest figures for human sperm counts? Have you heard what one of the prime suspects is for this dramatic fall? Synthetic hormones excreted into the environment by women taking the human contraceptive pill. Hormone treatments are a blunt tool, as hormones tend to work across a broad spectrum - you cannot make them species specific as many species use the same kind of hormones to regulate their cycles. And with Squirrels being common and also a prey species, you'd get a build-up effect in whatever eats them or the other rodents that get contaminated.

Also, who would pay for these 5 million doses of contraceptives to be laid and checked? Are you willing for it to be added on to your council tax? Do you think all of your neighbours feel the same? Do you think they'll vote for the councillor or MP suicidal enough to suggest it?

It IS too late for Reds in the UK. That is a simple fact. The biggest enemy they have is not defeatists (aka 'realists'), it is those with the mentality that is for all to see right now in the Eagle owl debate - 'what a lovely addition to our fauna, I'm sure they'll do no harm, they seem to get along ok with these kinds of species in their natural range'...


Answers to questions:

Don't know how you get them into Grey Squirrels only. Have increasingly heard suggestions they are responsible for declines in Hazel Dormouse as well, so maybe its worth trying to save more than one species?

Hadn't heard prime suspect theory, but welcome it as it suggests use of oral contraceptives by some is having an effect on the ones who won't use it for whatever reasons as well - a good thing. However it is still only a theory.

Who pays: national problem, national government pays. Get funding from all these projects to improve access i.e. tarmac over the environment, or even better, from the budget for the Arts, a complete waste of money if ever there was one, the market should decide what/where/how much for Art of all descriptions. 5 million doses - well lets call it 2.5 million courses, shall we, presumably it works on one or other sex and repeat doses may be needed? I think actually most of Joe Public understands and is on side with the Red/Grey debate. Phrasing it as "saving" rather than "exterminating" goes down well as well.

Nice one getting the Eagle Owls in there, as you know we disagree not on treatment of invaders but on whether they are or not.

John
 
I like Grey Squirrels.
I just get a bit disappointed on days when every moving thing in woods turns out to be a squirrel - and I come back with 101 great pictures of squirrels and no birds!
Alan
 
The warden at my local patch used to cull squirrels.
You can get fined £500 or something if you feed a squirrel.
I have found a picture which fits the subject birds vs squirrels quite well:
Birds warnham s v p.jpg
 
The warden at my local patch used to cull squirrels.
You can get fined £500 or something if you feed a squirrel.
I have found a picture which fits the subject birds vs squirrels quite well:
View attachment 107727

hi Devil Bird

Really!!, that is very interesting to know as it shows how things differ from each county in the UK. This is obviously an issue as part of your area, you live at at the moment.

Fined £500 caught feeding a squirrel, that is a hefty fine. Can I ask if this considered a fine - say in the local park/nature reserve/public areas, or is it an area thing here.

It may be part of the past but why not re-open the case now. It is valid after all.

If so, send the army to here in Bedford anyday :t:.

I have tried so hard to keep Grey Squirrels of my bird food with great difficulty at the moment. They are so 'persistent' to get one over you at all costs. Little pests that they are. :-C

Another thing, can I ask what bird is facing your Grey Squirrel in your picture It looks although it is going on a mission to sort the 'pesty gritter' - big time. If it a type of bird that can do that all the better ;)

Regards
Kathy
 
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I like Grey Squirrels.
I just get a bit disappointed on days when every moving thing in woods turns out to be a squirrel - and I come back with 101 great pictures of squirrels and no birds!
Alan

Sorry threads are back to front there ;)

Hi Alan R:

Yes the Grey Squirrels dominate the scene here - very photogenic they are too.

Cull!

I don't like that word!.

Eradicate, thats more like it!.

What makes you think I dislike the little blighter's!.

Alan R - 2

Eradicate sounds more realistic here too. The thing is Grey's are entitled to live, but not take over the Reds end of story here.

This is what is happening now, Grey's taking over. That upsets me, as the Reds are lovely, deserve recognition to the point of full star treatment, and no less. They belong to UK and that is how it should be here. So sad :-C

There must be a way to stop this indirect 'massacre' of the Reds

Other theories here are ......... Question here...?????

Of course there are questions attached to other members opinions here too.

The news item was so controversial. It is so full of questions and more thoughts/questions where do we begin here????

So many of newpaper press items means, there are so many areas to cover about Squirrels, and other questions to ask here at the moment???

Regards
Kathy
 
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Hi Kathy,
I think it is £500 from what he said but he does have the tendancy to exaggerate things. Whatever it is you still get fined for feeding a squirrel apparently. Otherwise I don't know what kind it is, might be national or more local. He said it is in the wildlife and countryside act, if that is on the web somewhere.
The bird is a Pheasant, don't think that could do much damage to a squirrel ;).
Regards, David
hi Devil Bird

Really!!, that is very interesting to know as it shows how things differ from each county in the UK. This is obviously an issue as part of your area, you live at at the moment.

Fined £500 caught feeding a squirrel, that is a hefty fine. Can I ask if this considered a fine - say in the local park/nature reserve/public areas, or is it an area thing here.

It may be part of the past but why not re-open the case now. It is valid after all.

If so, send the army to here in Bedford anyday :t:.

I have tried so hard to keep Grey Squirrels of my bird food with great difficulty at the moment. They are so 'persistent' to get one over you at all costs. Little pests that they are. :-C

Another thing, can I ask what bird is facing your Grey Squirrel in your picture It looks although it is going on a mission to sort the 'pesty gritter' - big time. If it a type of bird that can do that all the better ;)

Regards
Kathy
 
the idea of dumping tons of contraceptives or releasing disease into the envoirnment is quite frankly stupidity of the highest order why do people always think they can control these things
the idea that it is to late to cull squirrels is wrong as well after all if youve got the manpower to set thousands of contraceptive baits then youve got the manpower to set and maintain the traps needed to cull
i'm pretty sure but don't know for certain that this is already on the go on certain reserves the last two visits to a local woodland reserve where there used to be loads of squirrels and i didn't see a single animal i also know that they have started culling the local deer population with some success a lot more ground plants etc
cheers
 
i dont think that the contraceptive would work. wouldnt all the other birds and animals eat them ? then we would have a problem on our hands.
i think we should cull , sorry eradicate, them. they are not supposed to be in this country. the BNP are wasting their time with their policies of sending humans back to their origins. why not send greys back to the flaming states ?
 
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