Gull for Identification (1 Viewer)

[Lancey]

Dear all,
I've recently found a video tape that I'd thought to be lost which includes a sequence on the gull in the videograbs. I saw it on 3rd November 2005 and although it gave good views alongside a mix of Lesser Black Backed Gulls and several juv/1w Yellow-Legged Gulls, I couldn't identify it.

It looks like a cross between a Lesser Black Backed Gull and a Yellow Legged Gull to me with the proportions of the Yellow Legged Gull and the greyish-brown mantle of an immature Lesser Black Backed Gull. I believe it to be a juvenile moulting into 1st winter plumage in which case it looks incorrect for a Yellow-Legged Gull (no barring on the mantle) and doesn't have the upperpart markings of a 1st winter Lesser Black Backed Gull either. If it is a 2nd winter Lesser Black Backed Gull, then it wouldn't have the juvenile coverts would it? Maybe things would have been easier if I hadn't rediscovered this video tape at all!

If I'm incorrect in my reasoning (which is quite likely!), could I be shown the error of my ways please.

Thanks,
Lancey

 

[sphinx79]

Hi Lancey,

Apart from the rather dark scapulars and mantle (late moult?) it looks pretty good for a Yellow-legged Gull coming into first-winter plumage. The pale head and bruised eye effect, along with the pattern of the wing coverts and tertials look ok to me. Of course it could be a hybrid with Lesser Black Backed but then you might expect a less classic white head pattern. And distinguishing with certainty a hybrid from the respective species would be no easy matter. My guess is that it's within the variation for first-winter Yellow-legged. I'm sure JanJ, Lou and others will have opinions too.

Rgds

Greg

 

[Xenospiza]

If I compare it with similar-aged gulls in Amsterdam, I'd say: Lesser Black-backed. My, are their back patterns variable...: http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/gull_index.html
Yellow-legged seems to be "barred" all the time. I could well be totally wrong.

 

[lou salomon]

before jan posts i'll give my opinion shortly. i think it is yellow-legged. while scaps are darkish some of them are well 2nd generation and in mid wing coverts there are also some new feathers. jizz/structure and head coloration say micha to me. i'll come back soon.

 

[Lancey]

Gull

Dear all,
Thanks for your feedback. I have attached a juv/1w Yellow Legged Gull photo taken on the same video footage under the same lighting conditions. The slightly more advanced Yellow-Legged Gulls I saw that day showed some barred scapulars which gave them quite a different look to the gull I couldn't identify.

I have attached a few more photos of the mystery gull too if it helps.

Lancey

 

[sphinx79]

Hi Lancey, I still think your mystery gull is a Yellow-legged. The jizz, with a squarish head (flattish crown and full nape) along with the chunky bill give a michahellis feel to the bird that Lou picked up too. Agree that the left-hand bird is browner, while yours is a paler, more contrasting individual. Juv/first-winter Yellow-legged is quite variable: some are browner and more Herring Gull-like and others paler, whiter-headed and closer to Caspian Gull or even Great Black Backed. In southern Sweden the Yellow-legged Gulls we see are often of the more constrasting type (presumably from central and south-east Europe) while the browner variety seem to dominate in the UK. The literature does suggest that michahellis becomes browner further west. I'm wondering if your bird looked unfamilar to you because it was of eastern rather than western origin, given that the latter predominate in the UK. But that's speculation, of course.

Rgds

Greg

 

[JANJ]

Hi all!
Understandible the michahellis theory, but I think this is a graellsii/intermedius.
The immediate impression of the darker looking scapulars in contrast to the paler covert region is striking, usually the opposite in michahellis. The structure of the gull doesn´t strike me as a michahellis, like in pic.7, although structure varies according to stance, mode, weather and so on. Bill shape could of course look good for michahellis, even if one would wish for blunter tip, and a little bit more pronounced gonys
It´s a little dificult to get a good grip on the scapular pattern, but each feather looks as quite plain darkish grey (where they like that in the field?), no visible anchor marks,
not so good for michahellis, with a pale narrow edge and a broader tip (http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/fuscus1g.html). It´s always a good point to check primary tips on a gull, if possible, for pointed tips (1st generation primaries), or rounded tips (2nd generation), difficult to see here though. It looks like the majority of coverts are juvenile, indicating graellsii/intermedius, this time of year, as for gull 6, which looks like a graellsii/intermedius to me (inspite of the michahellis like eye-maske), if now taken at the same date, because of the restricted moult. It´s a pale gull, which would perhaps be more associated more with michahellis or cachinnans in November, but also in graellsii/intermedius (http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/fuscus1a.html)
So, I would agree with Xenospiza on this one, with a slight caution.
JanJ

 

[Lancey]

Gull

JanJ and Greg,
Thanks for your comments. It looks much more like a Lesser Black Backed Gull type to me, although not a particularly obvious one. It almost gives the impression of being a 2nd winter Lesser Black Backed Gull to me because of the pale underparts, but the plumage doesn't bear this out. It is quite pale, so I guess that would rule out intermedius. Then again, I wouldn't have expected a 1w Lesser Black Backed Gull to have been quite so pale on the underparts as this bird.

I do realise though that Lesser Black Backed Gulls are highly variable in their appearance at all ages it seems.

So, is this the final conclusion - 1w Lesser Black Backed Gull (or should I say 2nd calendar year?).

Lancey

 

[Edward woodwood]

head gives YLG impression but the tertials, scaps and dark coverts are all saying LBB to me.

Tim

 

[sphinx79]

Lancey, did you get a view of the upperwing - notably the inner primaries? That ought to clinch this one either way. Looking again, I agree with JanJ that the scapular pattern is far from ideal for Yellow-legged in November. Having said that, the photos are blurred and a clearer image would help. From the images I get the impression there's active moult in the coverts but again it's hard to be sure. Sure, it could well be a pale, butch Lesser Black Backed (more likely on the balance of probabilities, I admit). Then again, there's a Yellow Legged jizz about the head that I can't quite put to bed.

Rgds

Greg

 

[JANJ]

Hi Lancey,

Your question of age is not that far out, thats why I made a comment about the primary tips, rounded or pointed. The tertials looks juvenile, although the lower ones looks paler. A 2cy would have wider pale tips to tertials like this one from France in Dec. (http://www.digimages.info/goebru/largra041224_KH_11w.jpg) In pic.2 it looks as if there´s quite a broad tailband, in line with graellsii/intermedius.
A 1st winter I would say
JanJ

 

[Edward woodwood]

yes

a first winter

tertials have it

surely the covs are LBBG too?

Tim

 

[Lancey]

Lbbg?

Dear all,
Unfortunately the gull didn't give me a view of the upperwing although it did flap a few times revealing a darkish brown underwing which doesn't tip the balance either way where LBBG or YLG are concerned.

In my opinion, it looks more like a LBBG than a YLG, but not one that is instantly recognisable. It was amongst a mixed flock of LBBGs, Herring Gulls and several YLGs and did stand out from the crowd which was why I videod it in the first place of course.

I suppose what throws me is the dull greyness of the upperparts which, given how pale the underparts are, make the bird look altogether washed out. The bill doesn't look quite right for a LBBG to me either, being rather agressive looking and almost Great Black Backed Gull-like.

Lancey

 

[JANJ]

"The bill doesn't look quite right for a LBBG to me either, being rather
agressive looking and almost Great Black Backed Gull-like."

Probably a male.
JanJ

 

[Xenospiza]

In the "European Scarce Birds" section of Surfbirds, there are two compilations of pics by very persistent Dutch gullwatcher Maarten Wielstra showing Yellow-legged Gull's foreheads are "bulgy". Indeed they look more bulgy than that of the gull in question here.

 

[JANJ]

He´s right, the "persistent" Dutch gullwatcher, but there´s no rule whitout an exception.
Caspian do look more friendly than Yellow-legged.

http://www.extracon.org/Gabbiani/cachinnans32

JanJ