Hawks, Moscow (1 Viewer)

[swiftik]

Hi everyone!

I need help with these two hawks, since hawks are always tricky to me. The photo is not mine, it was taken in September 2023 in Moscow.
I'm pretty sure that the bigger bird is a goshawk, but not sure about the smaller one. Is it small enough to be a sparrowhawk?

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello,

welcome to Birdforum!

Both birds are Sparrowhawks imo. Please note clear and contrasting, thus evident barring on the secondaries in both.
If evident like in your birds, a good feature against Goshawk.

Difference in size is ok for male and female Sparrowhawk.

 

[Butty]

Tail-tip shape of both says sparrowhawk.

 

[pianoman]

Interesting example of how different Sparrowhawks can look from each other. I had one fly close overhead the other day that seemed larger than usual, and with wings outstretched like your lower left bird. Took me a while to satisfy myself of the ID, but it was the only option really.

 

[KenM]

Tail-tip shape of both says sparrowhawk.

 

[Butty]

👍🏼
Tail-tip shape is a dodgy feature!

 

[swiftik]

Tail-tip shape of both says sparrowhawk.

Could you please provide more details of what you mean, or give a link where I could find information about tail-tip shape difference?

Meanwhile, huge thanks to everyone for your replies guys, it really helps!

 

[Sangahyando]

Could you please provide more details of what you mean, or give a link where I could find information about tail-tip shape difference?

Meanwhile, huge thanks to everyone for your replies guys, it really helps!

Tail corners are sharp in Sparrowhawk, but rounded in Goshawk. Obviously, you still have to take into account wear as well as the angle of view (and other established ID features), but it's a good pointer.

 

[01101001]

Why the long neck of the smaller bird as opposed to the short neck of the larger bird (a photo artifact, maybe, but--anyway--more plausible than the shape of the tail corners)?

What about the secondary barring as a distinguishing feature?

ML182572831 - Eurasian Goshawk - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML182572831; © Wei Yan; Liaoning, China

macaulaylibrary.org

I see it in both of Collins pictures of Goshawk as well. Also, in Ken's picture above if I understand the feature right?

EDIT: What if the 'smaller' bird is actually bigger but farther away?

EDIT 2: Another recent thread using the secondary barring feature, which I still don't understand (and where this single feature trumps all other arguments):

Two questions from Trondheim, Norway, Sept 15: Sprawk or Goshawk? and which 1C "Comic" tern?

Two birds I'm unsure of from yesterday's survey walk along the fjord shore. Sorry about photo quality. They were pretty distant and since I wasn't prepared to either fly or swim, I couldn't get closer. Also, to "shoot" the hawk, I had to tip my head waaaay back, so hard to stand entirely still...

www.birdforum.net

EDIT 3: A few more photos from ML showing what I mean:

ML492727441 - Eurasian Goshawk - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML492727441; © Vincent Wang; Hebei, China

macaulaylibrary.org

ML358946161 - Eurasian Goshawk - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML358946161; © Josep del Hoyo; Zaragoza, Aragón, Spain

macaulaylibrary.org

ML269720151 - Eurasian Goshawk - Macaulay Library

Macaulay Library ML269720151; © Adam Nagy; Pest, Hungary

macaulaylibrary.org

 

[tconzemi]

Difficult to understand indeed when the Macaulay Library shows a Sparrowhawk instead of a Goshawk

 

[tconzemi]

Also this feature is more or less useless in juvenile Goshawks (first pic) where bars are somewhat slimmer but touching the body
So first age the bird: juvenile Gos is easy to age and only look at inner secondaries in birds with barred underparts and wing all spread

 

[tconzemi]

Better use BF gallery

Goshawk

A female Goshawk flying through the trees on the edge of a block of Douglas firs

www.birdforum.net

 

[swiftik]

Tail corners are sharp in Sparrowhawk, but rounded in Goshawk. Obviously, you still have to take into account wear as well as the angle of view (and other established ID features), but it's a good pointer.

Sure, but that works for folded tails, not spread?
That's why I'm asking. Both the birds show widely spread tail, so is this feature still applicable?

 

[Sangahyando]

Sure, but that works for folded tails, not spread?
That's why I'm asking. Both the birds show widely spread tail, so is this feature still applicable?

Yes, it works with folded tail as well as when the tail is spread. With the caveat that - as I intimated above - the tail may look different due to wear or moult and thus you should also look for other features including the ones discussed above.
Regarding juvenile Goshawks, they have a streaked underside which rules out Sparrowhawk, so you don't need to worry about the secondary pattern unless it's an adult bird with a barred chest.

 

[01101001]

I see it in both of Collins pictures of Goshawk

The 3rd edition has it sorted.

 

[01101001]

What if the 'smaller' bird is actually bigger but farther away?

Another Goshawk question: why is the ostensibly 'smaller' bird not a Goshawk: head and neck, wing breadth and shape, overall silhouette?

EDIT: Given that inner secondary barring isn't always enough to confirm a Sparrowhawk.