How about a handbook for reptiles and amphibians of the world? (2 Viewers)

[Ian McConell]

In the past few days, a new book illustrating all currently known living, non-domesticated mammals, called “All the Mammals of the World”, was published by Lynx Edicions*. This magnificent book most probably consists the final stone in a monumental work that started in 2009 and aimed to provide up to date information and accurate illustrations for all living mammalian families and species. Before it, a similar extraordinary task was also carried out successfully by a predecessor series on birds.

Even before the completion of the bird’s series and after the successful start of the mammalian one, there were some “hopes” here and there (e.g., like comments in zoological forums) of a third, similar series that would cover the final major terrestrial clade of vertebrate zoology, namely herpetology (reptiles and amphibians). However, a series like this hasn’t come as of yet.

As such, mostly because I am curious if those “sparks” are still alive, I would like to ask the following: Do you believe that a series concerning reptiles and amphibians should or even could be produced by the company, providing that it will retain the same extremely high standards of the avian and mammalian ones?

Personally, I believe that a series like that would be extremely helpful and much needed in our times. Currently, our knowledge on various life aspects of reptiles and amphibians is constantly increasing, and as such changing the general opinion we have for them. Meanwhile, our negative impact on the environment (e.g., habitat destruction and alteration, pollution and our contribution to climate change) still remains high and even increases in many areas, pushing more and more species towards extinction. This is heavily true for the two aforementioned groups, with almost half (41%) of registered amphibians and 1 in 5 (21%) reptiles under a danger category in IUCN and a considerable number already extinct. As a result, I believe that a work like that, combining detailed, up to date information with quality photos and illustrations of every species could be valuable as a comprehensive source for those groups in a time where their lives are better understood, but their members increasingly endangered.



*To those unfamiliar with, Lynx Edicions is a Catalan-based publishing company that was founded in 1989. It later gained fame by successfully publishing the award-winning series “Handbook of the Birds of the World” and the similarly well-received “Handbook of the Mammals of the World”.

 

[njlarsen]

An equally important question: would there ever be enough people interested in purchasing such a tome to make it viable?
Niels

 

[Melanie]

I think it would last many years and it might be bigger challenge to create a book about all the amphibians and reptiles of the world (the same with fishes). The taxonomy within the herpetology is stronger in flow than in those of the ornithology and mammalogy. Take for example the richly herpetofauna of South-East Asia (Indonesia, New Guinea) which it is very difficult to detect.

 

[KC Foggin]

Just going to jump in here to wish you a warm welcome to BirdForum. Enjoy!

 

[jurek]

Would be good, they can also tap to the market of reptile keepers.

However, it might be also challenging - there are very few reptile specialists who could write such book. I know the HMW editor repeated several times how imprtant was having a backup in case some authors did not make it.

 

[Owene]

I have the mammals and birds books. (Although double volume set for the mammals). How would the species numbers compare for herpetology?

I’m guessing there would be very large equivalents of the shrew sections of the mammals with pages and pages of almost identical species that even researchers were unlikely to ever scratch the surface of

Not that that is a problem as such. I’d definitely be interested in a copy

 

[Mysticete]

I would think the interest from amateurs would be higher than for the mammal volumes; Herping is a bigger hobby than mammalwatching, plus you have the folks who are into keeping herps (those groups have crossover but not complete). I also don't think you would have that much a trouble finding people to write up sections...there are enough herpetologists out there to cover the major groups

But I have no idea how well the mammal volumes sold, or even if they ended up making a profit. ANd it would be a colossal bit of work...a quick google suggests there are overall something like 14000+ species of herps. That's nearly equal to the mammal and bird volumes combined.

And Lynx seems to be not terribly ambitious with there current slate of books.

 

[Ian McConell]

An equally important question: would there ever be enough people interested in purchasing such a tome to make it viable?
Niels

I would think the interest from amateurs would be higher than for the mammal volumes; Herping is a bigger hobby than mammalwatching, plus you have the folks who are into keeping herps (those groups have crossover but not complete).

Concenring the target group, I also believe that herpetology has gained considerable amateur supporters nowadays for at least some groups (e.g., those often kept as pets or in zoos). I am not sure if they could be considered a stronger community than mammals as a whole, but very probably stronger than Myomorpha, Eulipotyphla or even Chiroptera.

However, it might be also challenging - there are very few reptile specialists who could write such book. I know the HMW editor repeated several times how imprtant was having a backup in case some authors did not make it.

I also don't think you would have that much a trouble finding people to write up sections...there are enough herpetologists out there to cover the major groups

The problem with specialists and covering all the species is indeed a serious one, but, again, nowadays, it is most probably manageable. This is mainly thanks to AmphibiaWeb and Reptile Database, which, since their foundation, have provided a stable and constantly expanding database for photos and references of herps, with the former even touching topics as education and conservation. They also operate with the help of both amateur volunteers and experts. As such, if you wanted to make a book on those two groups but didn't know how to start collecting resources, you could initially communicate with them for the basics (taxa photos, experts for the chapters, general taxonomy, etc). 20-25 yeras ago, when databases like these were absent, expert numbers were much lower and amateur contribution/interest to herpetology was not as strong or even absent in many cases to start with, a feat like this was almost, if not totally, impossible. But now, it is more like the "basic equipment" has been gathered and prepared, but everyone is hesitant to use it in such a large scale.

But I have no idea how well the mammal volumes sold, or even if they ended up making a profit.

I don't think that we will ever know, but, theoritically, for them completing the series and even splitting rodents into two, they gave back at least what they took to be made (zero profit and zero loss). Those volumes containing the better known and "famous" groups may even be quite profitable. E.g., Carnivores was out of print at least one, not so long ago, for about a month. They also produced a number of "off-branches" with minimal new effort (Illustrated Checklist, All the Mammals and the few field guides), which are more or less just extra profit.

Concerning herps, I don't know the true potential of the book market, but it apperas to be at least stable, as new books (some quite expensive) for whole regions and/or groups are made/updated every few years, some of them being relatively recent (e.g., 7th ed. of Reptiles and Amphibians of Australia, Amphibians and reptiles of Wisconsin, Snakes of the World-A Guide to Every Family, Complete Guide to the Snakes of Southern Africa and A Complete Guide to Reptiles of Australia).

And Lynx seems to be not terribly ambitious with there current slate of books.

This is probably the biggest drawback for the start of a new colossal work like HBW and HMW: the supposed loss of high ambitions. A lot of the newly published books, although beautiful most of the time, seem to support it, being more simple, generic and "safe" (e.g., Récords y curiosidades de los dinosaurios Saurópodos y otros sauropodomorfos is the Spanish analogue/translation of Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs: The Sauropods and the forthcoming Aves de Europa – Identificación de todas las especies y plumajes of Handboek Europese vogels – Alle kenmerken in beeld).

 

[jurek]

The name Handbook of X of the World is generic. If Lynx does not want, there could be another publisher coming up with it.

 

[Ian McConell]

I think it would last many years and it might be bigger challenge to create a book about all the amphibians and reptiles of the world (the same with fishes).

How would the species numbers compare for herpetology?

ANd it would be a colossal bit of work...a quick google suggests there are overall something like 14000+ species of herps. That's nearly equal to the mammal and bird volumes combined.

Definitely, a huge amount of work would be needed for a series containing so many species! However, the labor would not be equally distributed among all taxa, simply because a lot of them are not so well known. E.g., well studied groups with relatively few taxa (Crocodilidae, Alligatoridae and Testudinidae) and hyperspeciose, varied and relatively well studied (as a whole) ones (Ranidae, Bufonidae, Colubridae and Elapidae) could have extensive family texts, touching even 30-60 pages each, but those 60 pages could be more than enough for all 10 of caecilian families (including species accounts).

A general, theoritical publishing scheme, could be something like this. Note that it isn't random, but follows a phylogenetic framework in the order of families and tries to be the most marketable possible. E.g., by placing turtles and crocodiles together in the first volume (two of the oldest lineages, each others closest relatives and well known groups for the general public) you accomplish something similar to Volume 1 of HMW, where you ''lure'' the buyers to the series and maximize the initial profit. On the other hand, the most unstable and less known/beloved groups (frogs and kin) are further below, where, in theory, you have already established a base for the series (kind of what happened with bats, mice and shrews):

​

VOLUME 1 (Turtles to Crocodiles)

1. Chelidae
2. Pelomedusidae
3. Podocnemididae
4. Chelydridae
5. Dermatemydidae
6. Kinosternidae
7. Cheloniidae
8. Dermochelyidae
9. Platysternidae
10. Emydidae
11. Geoemydidae
12. Testudinidae
13. Carettochelyidae
14. Trionychidae
15. Alligatoridae
16. Gavialidae
17. Crocodylidae

VOLUME 2 (Tuatara to Girdled Lizards)

1. Sphenodontidae
2. Dibamidae
3. Diplodactylidae
4. Pygopodidae
5. Carphodactylidae
6. Eublepharidae
7. Sphaerodactylidae
8. Phyllodactylidae
9. Gekkonidae
10. Scincidae
11. Xantusiidae
12. Gerrhosauridae
13. Cordylidae

VOLUME 3 (Spectacled Lizards to Worm Lizards)

1. Gymnophthalmidae
2. Teiidae
3. Lacertidae
4. Rhineuridae
5. Bipedidae
6. Blanidae
7. Cadeidae
8. Trogonophidae
9. Amphisbaenidae

VOLUME 4 (Chinese Crocodile Lizard to Madagascan Iguanas)

1. Shinisauridae
2. Lanthanotidae
3. Varanidae
4. Helodermatidae
5. Xenosauridae
6. Diploglossidae
7. Anniellidae
8. Anguidae
9. Chamaeleonidae
10. Agamidae
11. Leiocephalidae
12. Iguanidae
13. Hoplocercidae
14. Crotaphytidae
15. Corytophanidae
16. Tropiduridae
17. Phrynosomatidae
18. Dactyloidae
19. Polychrotidae
20. Liolaemidae
21. Leiosauridae
22. Opluridae

VOLUME 5 (Thread Snakes to Round Island Boa)

1. Leptotyphlopidae
2. Gerrhopilidae
3. Xenotyphlopidae
4. Typhlopidae
5. Anomalepididae
6. Aniliidae
7. Tropidophiidae
8. Uropeltidae
9. Anomochilidae
10. Cylindrophiidae
11. Xenopeltidae
12. Loxocemidae
13. Pythonidae
14. Boidae
15. Xenophidiidae
16. Bolyeriidae

VOLUME 6 (File Snakes to Elapids)

1. Acrochordidae
2. Xenodermidae
3. Pareidae
4. Viperidae
5. Homalopsidae
6. Colubridae
7. Lamprophiidae
8. Cyclocoridae
9. Pseudaspididae
10. Prosymnidae
11. Psammophiidae
12. Micrelapidae
13. Atractaspididae
14. Pseudoxyrhophiidae
15. Lamprophiidae
16. Elapidae

VOLUME 7 (Common Caecilians to Sirens)

1. Caeciliidae
2. Chikilidae
3. Dermophiidae
4. Grandisoniidae
5. Herpelidae
6. Ichthyophiidae
7. Rhinatrematidae
8. Scolecomorphidae
9. Siphonopidae
10. Typhlonectidae
11. Cryptobranchidae
12. Hynobiidae
13. Ambystomatidae
14. Amphiumidae
15. Plethodontidae
16. Proteidae
17. Rhyacotritonidae
18. Salamandridae
19. Sirenidae

VOLUME 8 (New Zealand Frogs to Purple Frogs)

1. Leiopelmatidae
2. Ascaphidae
3. Bombinatoridae
4. Alytidae
5. Pipidae
6. Rhinophrynidae
7. Scaphiopodidae
8. Pelodytidae
9. Pelobatidae
10. Megophryidae
11. Heleophrynidae
12. Sooglossidae
13. Nasikabatrachidae

VOLUME 9 (Calyptocephalellid Toads to Poison Dart Frogs)

1. Calyptocephalellidae
2. Myobatrachidae
3. Limnodynastidae
4. Ceuthomantidae
5. Brachycephalidae
6. Eleutherodactylidae
7. Craugastoridae
8. Hemiphractidae
9. Hylidae
10. Bufonidae
11. Aromobatidae
12. Dendrobatidae

VOLUME 10 (Southern Frogs to Mouth-brooding Frogs)

1. Leptodactylidae
2. Allophrynidae
3. Centrolenidae
4. Ceratophryidae
5. Odontophrynidae
6. Cycloramphidae
7. Alsodidae
8. Hylodidae
9. Telmatobiidae
10. Batrachylidae
11. Rhinodermatidae

VOLUME 11 (Narrow-mouthed Frogs to True Frogs)

1. Microhylidae
2. Brevicipitidae
3. Hemisotidae
4. Hyperoliidae
5. Arthroleptidae
6. Ptychadenidae
7. Micrixalidae
8. Phrynobatrachidae
9. Conrauidae
10. Petropedetidae
11. Pyxicephalidae
12. Nyctibatrachidae
13. Ceratobatrachidae
14. Ranixalidae
15. Dicroglossidae
16. Rhacophoridae
17. Mantellidae
18. Ranidae

 

[THE_FERN]

Perhaps people really hate trees. For me, it's obvious that these things should be electronic. I want a handbook of the x of the world, but only if I can put it in my mobile and treat it (if only somewhat) like the database it is. Viewed this way, the task becomes much easier. How to prepare the reptile database so it can be formatted for this kind of use?

... Perhaps that includes getting people to write more overview material and more general introduction text. Perhaps it involves focusing on those species without photos and with little information.

 

[Mysticete]

Concenring the target group, I also believe that herpetology has gained considerable amateur supporters nowadays for at least some groups (e.g., those often kept as pets or in zoos). I am not sure if they could be considered a stronger community than mammals as a whole, but very probably stronger than Myomorpha, Eulipotyphla or even Chiroptera.

The facebook group for the North American Field herper association sports 27,000 members, a good 25,000 more members than the North American mammalwatching facebook group. And odds are this is an underestimate, as there are lots of young herpers and facebook has become more a old person site (something literally told to me by my students lol). There are enough to support regional herping clubs, although fewer clubs than bird-related clubs. I doubt there are 100 Hardcore mammalwatchers (e.g., folks who care for anything beyond charismatic megafauna).

Herpers just generally stay under the radar more. They tend to frequent different sites at different times than birders, and there is an air (justified unfortunately) of secrecy, less your favorite herping spots get raided by collectors or trashed by folks who don't know proper field etiquette. We birders do outnumber them by quite a bit still, but its a bigger hobby than you might think.

 

[Mysticete]

Perhaps people really hate trees. For me, it's obvious that these things should be electronic. I want a handbook of the x of the world, but only if I can put it in my mobile and treat it (if only somewhat) like the database it is. Viewed this way, the task becomes much easier. How to prepare the reptile database so it can be formatted for this kind of use?

... Perhaps that includes getting people to write more overview material and more general introduction text. Perhaps it involves focusing on those species without photos and with little information.

I think this is a project that you have to go big on. I don't see a digital first being profitable enough to support a expensive project like this. Although once you write the books, you can think milk it for illustrations and info for digital resources, illustrated checklists, and regional guides.

 

[jurek]

it's obvious that these things should be electronic. I want a handbook of the x of the world, but only if I can put it in my mobile and treat it (if only somewhat) like the database it is. Viewed this way, the task becomes much easier. How to prepare the reptile database so it can be formatted for this kind of use?

I also prefer electronic things to paper. For the recent trips, I photograph pages and plates from HMW.

However, for practical purposes, it seems that books count more as publications in academia. So it can be easier to convince a professional researcher to write a section for the book, than an electronic-only publication accessed 1000 times more. Another quirk of science which is not really up to modern world. So electronics-only wildlife databases I know of, are often dumps of posts and photos from amateurs and very variable quality.

 

[THE_FERN]

I think this is a project that you have to go big on. I don't see a digital first being profitable enough to support a expensive project like this. Although once you write the books, you can think milk it for illustrations and info for digital resources, illustrated checklists, and regional guides.

Well something like this isn't going to be very profitable anyway: even the most popular aren't (massively). One of the points about electronic is that costs are greatly reduced: paper basically has all the same electronic costs plus the tree destruction and shipping costs

 

[Pet]

Well something like this isn't going to be very profitable anyway: even the most popular aren't (massively). One of the points about electronic is that costs are greatly reduced: paper basically has all the same electronic costs plus the tree destruction and shipping costs

Don't know who will agree with me, but electronic books feel less permanent (although there is no doubt about their practicality sometimes).

But a feel of a "real" book is something on another level. And high-quality fine works like HBW, HMW and upcoming projects in electronic form is a BIG NO for me.

 

[Mysticete]

Don't know who will agree with me, but electronic books feel less permanent (although there is no doubt about their practicality sometimes).

But a feel of a "real" book is something on another level. And high-quality fine works like HBW, HMW and upcoming projects in electronic form is a BIG NO for me.

Yeah, I am a physical media fan, whether that is Blue-rays or books. Some of which is philosophical and some of which is just personal preference.

But this debate has been hashed out on the forum dozens of times at this point.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Perhaps people really hate trees. For me, it's obvious that these things should be electronic. I want a handbook of the x of the world, but only if I can put it in my mobile and treat it (if only somewhat) like the database it is. Viewed this way, the task becomes much easier. How to prepare the reptile database so it can be formatted for this kind of use?

... Perhaps that includes getting people to write more overview material and more general introduction text. Perhaps it involves focusing on those species without photos and with little information.

Or they just love books.

 

[Essex Tern]

Personally if this was done I would say a separate book for reptiles, and another for amphibians.

I tend to favour digital and hard copies of good reference books, so there is definitely profit in digital format from me.

 

[jmiza]

I have long desired such a work for reptiles and amphibians. I have previously bought 15 out of the 16 original volumes of the HBW series, and own five of the mammals series. However, after purchasing All the Birds of the World and now the single-volume mammal equivalent, I really would most prefer such a volume for reptiles and amphibians. Or actually, one volume for reptiles, and one for amphibians (since collectively there are so many species). Now that I own the single volume work for the birds I probably would be better off selling my fifteen volumes of HBW. Obviously there is a tremendous amount of information in the original work that is completely absent in the single volume tome, but for my uses the original work is overkill. How many of you would prefer an "All the Reptiles/Amphbians of the World" over a ten-plus volume handbook series?