Indian or Great Cormorant help pls. S Thailand, Mar 15, 2023 (1 Viewer)

[bhutjoe]

Hi, in the attached photos there are several cormorants with quite a white throat patch and yellow gular skin. Apologies for the lack of sharpness in the photos but I think the side of the face and throat and gular skin come through clearly enough. Which I think suggests Great Cormorant. However, the heads of these birds are quite round, which suggests Indian. Indian is uncommon and Great, at least recently, would be quite rare. In the last photo (188c) there is one to the right with that facial colouring and a flatter head, but the one in the center appears to me to bee quite round

There are a number of these, amongst a flight of Little Cormorants and I think some black faced Indian (just to the left of the "centered" questionable cormorant with the round head and relatively large size ). Can Indian Cormorants in non-breeding plumage show so much white and yellow? Nothing in my field guides or in looking through Macaulay images suggests that. But the heads are clearly not flat either. So I am stuck If pressed, I would say Indian, but I then would be unable to explain why the face/neck/gular colouring.

Taken March 15, 2023 in a very large marshy and diked area in Songkhla Province, South Thailand.

Thank you very much in advance for your comments and corrections to my line of thinking.
steve

 

[THE_FERN]

I would've said "no" but if we believe the multiple Macauley images identified as Indian then I'm forced to say "yes"

 

[bhutjoe]

Thanks very much The Fern for the quick response. Perhaps the white would go further up the face on a Great? Anyways, Indian is quite uncommon here but i have seen them before. In fact I asked on here for confirmation about a year ago on a small group of Indian cormorants. But the white and yellow just stood out so much more on these that I was wondering.
thanks again
steve

 

[THE_FERN]

perhaps...face

I think it depends on age. Looking at photos, suggest shape (i.e. not rounded) and size probably a better guide.

 

[bhutjoe]

Thank you the Fern. Very helpful and much appreciated.
steve

 

[Butty]

The books seem to just fail on immature Indian cormorant (eg this underpart pattern must be worth something). I wonder if the new Seabirds is any use? I suspect that's what these birds must be - chiefly because the bills look so thin - but, in saying that, I'm acutely aware that low photo-quality and fuzziness (no offence) inherently make thin things look thinner than they are.

 

[RafaelMatias]

This seems interesting for this thread: https://birdcount.in/cormorants-clarified/
In addition to what others have said, shape of bare gular skin seems to rule out Great.
Also may be worth checking: https://www.researchgate.net/public...reat_Cormorants_Phalacrocorax_carbo_in_Europe

 

[Xenospiza]

Birds of South Asia mentions dark belly for Indian, (usually) white for Great, which supports the former.

 

[01101001]

about the extent of white on the face of Great Cormorant in relation to age (some photos still missing, unfortunately): Species Files – Guia Blasco Zumeta de Aves

 

[bhutjoe]

Thank you everyone for your comments. In quickly going through all of the articles it does seem that Great would have a different shape to the white patch and yellow (or red) gular skin. As Raefel noted, what I have been able to find shows that on Great the white areav seems to be a larger patch going up the face. I will go through the articles in more detail tomorrow, so thank you everyone for that.
And thank you all for taking the time to look and provide such thoughtful comments on what are fuzzy photos (and almost all if not all of the cormorants in question have their bills open so difficult to tell thickness.
Thank you all again
steve