• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Is RSPB our premier bird conservation organization any longer (1 Viewer)

I do appreciate the difference between driven and rough / walk-up grouse shooting, and signed the petition. Received the following response from DEFRA:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/125003?reveal_response=yes
According to DEFRA, 'grouse shooting takes place in upland areas, which are important for delivering a range of valuable “ecosystem services”, including food and fibre, water regulation, carbon storage, biodiversity, and recreational opportunities for health and wellbeing'. So drainage and muirburn to support artificially high grouse numbers don't affect water regulation, carbon storage or biodiversity...hmmm
You'll be pleased to know that hen harriers will be fine too, because (to quote again) 'the Defra led Upland Stakeholder Forum hen harrier sub-group published the Joint action plan to increase the English hen harrier population'.
 
I suspect that a large % of those that have signed will have signed simply because they dont like shooting full stop or dont like people who have more money than they do rather than genuine opinions about the conservation rights and wrongs.

The majority of people promoting this campaign on social media and birder-naturalists are more likely anti-criminal and anti those who offer weak excuses for damaging whole ecosystems for sport & profit. Playing the class card just lowers any glimmer of counter argument in my opinion.
 
Hmm, if my employer asked me to do something illegal under threat of sacking or not I wouldn't be doing it, and something as morally objectionable as persecution of vulnerable species - as far as I'm concerned the whole industry is rotten to the core but as I alluded to in my previous post, the problem is entrenched and we can't change it due to general apathy.
Yeah, but people (regardless of social status or education) can't always think on their feet when pressure is applied. It's unfortunate, but by no means limited to this particular area of professional life (otherwise, there wouldn't be so many political scandals).


They're not for outright banning of grouse shooting, just for the type (driven shoots) which appeals to the 'fox-in-a-chicken-shed' mentality shooters which requires abnormally high densities of grouse to satiate their psychotic blood lust.
Or to compensate for their poor aiming skills and/or lack of stamina and patience (all of which are rather essential qualities of a good hunter).
 
Last edited:
The majority of people promoting this campaign on social media and birder-naturalists are more likely anti-criminal and anti those who offer weak excuses for damaging whole ecosystems for sport & profit. Playing the class card just lowers any glimmer of counter argument in my opinion.

Dont get me wrong Robin i'm not suggesting that class is the main issue or trying to use it as an excuse but I think we all know it does play its part and is something we need to consider. You need only look at the shooting related threads in here and you'll see the vast majority soon include words like rich and toff instead of just focusing on what should be the main issue.
 
Yeah, but people (regardless of social status or education) can't always think on their feet when pressure is applied. It's unfortunate, but by no means limited to this particular area of professional life (otherwise, there wouldn't be so many political scandals).

You are right, a good example would be the horse meat scandal a couple of years ago. Someone decided to replace one type of domestic dead animal for another, not tell anyone and make a bit of extra cash.

Clearly wrong but morally better than raptor persecution IMHO.

Now look at what has happened since the scandal broke. The extra work that we do in terms of validating our supply chains and authenticating our products, not just in the meat industry but the food industry as a whole.

On the other hand, what gets done when raptor after raptor is found poisoned or shot?
 
Dont get me wrong Robin i'm not suggesting that class is the main issue or trying to use it as an excuse but I think we all know it does play its part and is something we need to consider. You need only look at the shooting related threads in here and you'll see the vast majority soon include words like rich and toff instead of just focusing on what should be the main issue.

Perhaps there is a valid reason for that. I haven't heard many of the chavs in my area chatting about the fun time they had on the moors last August 12th.

Those to whom "rich" and "toff" apply are the main issue, even more than the poor unfortunate misunderstood gamekeeper employees that are forced into illegal behaviour to feed the business aspirations of the rich toffs. Lets be quite clear about this: drug dealers and their enforcers are both, correctly, considered criminals and chased down and dealt with. Gamekeepers' employers - rich toffs - are the criminal classes, just as drug barons directing illegal behaviour. They should be in the dock and then in the prison showers picking up the soap.

But they aren't, are they? They aren't held responsible for their naughty employees' misdeeds, aren't brought to justice and must be laughing all the way to the merchant bank or castle.

John
 
Perhaps there is a valid reason for that. I haven't heard many of the chavs in my area chatting about the fun time they had on the moors last August 12th.

Those to whom "rich" and "toff" apply are the main issue, even more than the poor unfortunate misunderstood gamekeeper employees that are forced into illegal behaviour to feed the business aspirations of the rich toffs. Lets be quite clear about this: drug dealers and their enforcers are both, correctly, considered criminals and chased down and dealt with. Gamekeepers' employers - rich toffs - are the criminal classes, just as drug barons directing illegal behaviour. They should be in the dock and then in the prison showers picking up the soap.

But they aren't, are they? They aren't held responsible for their naughty employees' misdeeds, aren't brought to justice and must be laughing all the way to the merchant bank or castle.

John

The point is it shouldn't matter who's doing it if its actually what they are doing that's the problem.
If most people killing raptors and shooting Grouse happened to be black or gay or whatever else nobody would be talking about that,they would simply focus on the actual problem not their own feelings about the type of people causing said problem.
I'm as working class as you can get would you find it more acceptable for me to go a kill a Hen Harrier and shoot Grouse or would you then simply concentrate on the problem I'm causing rather than who I am?
 
The point is it shouldn't matter who's doing it if its actually what they are doing that's the problem.
If most people killing raptors and shooting Grouse happened to be black or gay or whatever else nobody would be talking about that,they would simply focus on the actual problem not their own feelings about the type of people causing said problem.
I'm as working class as you can get would you find it more acceptable for me to go a kill a Hen Harrier and shoot Grouse or would you then simply concentrate on the problem I'm causing rather than who I am?

The point is that being rich, they are able to buy effective immunity from prosecution, and by being influential, they are able to prevent the law from having the necessary teeth for effective raptor protection.
 
by being influential, they are able to prevent the law from having the necessary teeth for effective raptor protection.
..and that is the key issue, no government of whatever political persuation will want to take on the landholding establishment, hence no chance of vicarious liability becoming law in England and Wales.
 
John your question is very difficult to answer. When I joined in 1973 it was primarily an organisation run by ornithologists or people with a deep love of birds and the membership reflected this but it was not not mainstream.Indeed when I was a boy birdwatchers were regarded as slightly odd in a well meaning way. In the late 70's and 80's birdwatching became much more popular endorsed by a plethora of celebrities. The late Eric Morecambe is a good example of what I mean.
Today birdwatching is both popular and mainstream and many people find birdwatching a pleasant leisure activity which does not necessarily require much effort. Today many well known bird reserves are almost "Nature Theme Parks" catering for the mass market. Membership of the RSPB has changed and because of the increased income many new reserves have been purchased but these still have to be managed which is costly.
I do not know what the social profile of the RSPB membership is, but mature, white middle class and small c conservative comes to mind. Visit a typical "honeypot" reserve to see what I mean.
Can the RSPB afford to upset it's membership by being controversial? I cannot see many RSPB members doing a mass trespass on the grouse moors, protesting against driven grouse shooting.
On another tangent I am slightly uncomfortable about the RSPB becoming and overarching "National Wildlife Trust" (Nature's Home etc). I fully accept that any conservation project will effect the overall ecology and that nature reserves need to sensitive to the big picture, I worry that the RSPB may be seen as taking over.
The various County Wildlife Trusts seem to be able to cope with nearly all the various strands of nature (wild flowers, fungi, butterflies, moths etc) without any problems so maybe it's just me.
John your simple question has raised many issues in my mind but I'm not sure about the best way forward.
 
The point is it shouldn't matter who's doing it if its actually what they are doing that's the problem.
If most people killing raptors and shooting Grouse happened to be black or gay or whatever else nobody would be talking about that,they would simply focus on the actual problem not their own feelings about the type of people causing said problem.
I'm as working class as you can get would you find it more acceptable for me to go a kill a Hen Harrier and shoot Grouse or would you then simply concentrate on the problem I'm causing rather than who I am?

Operation Trident.....

John
 
The BTO believe that a ban of driven grouse would not necessarily improve the lot of Hen Harriers:

http://www.bto.org/national-offices/scotland/our-work/selected-highlights/hen-harrier

Stopping management for grouse has been suggested as a means of improving the fortunes of Hen Harriers (Thompson 2009). However, although this would remove the main proximal constraint on populations in some areas, it might not translate straightforwardly into increases in Hen Harrier populations. In areas currently dominated by grouse-moor, a shift to alternative land uses such as forestry or high-density stocking with sheep or deer, could diminish the value of the land for harriers by decreasing food availability or nesting success. Efforts are still ongoing by scientists and practitioners on both sides of this conflict to find a way to manage for grouse without illegally controlling raptors (Amar 2014). If such a solution can be found, it has the potential to benefit both the grouse shooting industry and Hen Harrier conservation more than alternative scenarios in which the existence of one precludes the other.

This research, funded by RSPB & Natural England, indicates that there are benefits for threatened waders such as curlew and lapwing where grouse management and predator control is most intensive.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1365-2664.12167/abstract

Breeding success is a key determinant of wader population changes, with predation, typically from mesopredators such as foxes and corvids, in turn a major cause of breeding failure (MacDonald & Bolton 2008). When considered in conjunction with previous studies of upland waders and the influence of predator control on their breeding success and breeding densities, this study suggests that interactions between landscape structure (the configuration of woodland and open ground) and predation pressure may be an important influence on population change for curlew in the UK uplands and may be for other waders such as lapwing and dunlin. This evidence can be summarized as follows: (i) the recent catastrophic declines of curlew (and other waders) in Northern Ireland (Birdwatch Ireland 2011), where previous detailed studies have shown that high nest predation is the probable cause of curlew declines, at least (Grant et al. 1999); (ii) higher breeding densities of waders on land managed for grouse than those on land not managed for grouse, due at least in part to predator control (Tharme et al. 2001); (iii) positive effects of experimentally deployed predator control on wader breeding success and population change (Fletcher et al. 2010 ); (iv) lower declines in waders such as lapwing where grouse management was most intensive and larger declines in areas with high densities of carrion crow (Amar et al. 2011a); and (v) the lack of other environmental effects on nesting success and population change in this study (grazing, habitat, topography).

Grant et al, 1999:http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2664.1999.00379.x/full

'Thus, both direct predator control and land-use manipulations will require considerable resources. At present it is difficult to envisage ways in which this could be achieved on a sufficient scale to impact upon curlew populations throughout Northern Ireland, without fundamental changes in systems of agricultural support and associated environmental measures'.

The subsequent ‘catastrophic declines of curlew (and other waders) in Northern Ireland (Birdwatch Ireland 2011)’ would suggest that Grant’s prediction was correct.

The red listing of curlews and lapwing was upgraded from ‘least concern’ to ‘near threatened’ in 2008 and 2015 respectively.

Without ‘fundamental changes in systems of agricultural support and associated environmental measures’, grouse moors (currently largely funded by ‘rich toffs’) are becoming last breeding refuges for these species.

As the BTO suggest grouse moors are also important habitats for Hen harriers, finding ways of keeping them financially viable, whilst somehow protecting hen harriers must be the sustainable way forward.
 
The BTO believe that a ban of driven grouse would not necessarily improve the lot of Hen Harriers:

http://www.bto.org/national-offices/scotland/our-work/selected-highlights/hen-harrier

Stopping management for grouse has been suggested as a means of improving the fortunes of Hen Harriers (Thompson 2009). However, although this would remove the main proximal constraint on populations in some areas, it might not translate straightforwardly into increases in Hen Harrier populations. In areas currently dominated by grouse-moor, a shift to alternative land uses such as forestry or high-density stocking with sheep or deer, could diminish the value of the land for harriers by decreasing food availability or nesting success. Efforts are still ongoing by scientists and practitioners on both sides of this conflict to find a way to manage for grouse without illegally controlling raptors (Amar 2014). If such a solution can be found, it has the potential to benefit both the grouse shooting industry and Hen Harrier conservation more than alternative scenarios in which the existence of one precludes the other.

This research, funded by RSPB & Natural England, indicates that there are benefits for threatened waders such as curlew and lapwing where grouse management and predator control is most intensive.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1365-2664.12167/abstract

Breeding success is a key determinant of wader population changes, with predation, typically from mesopredators such as foxes and corvids, in turn a major cause of breeding failure (MacDonald & Bolton 2008). When considered in conjunction with previous studies of upland waders and the influence of predator control on their breeding success and breeding densities, this study suggests that interactions between landscape structure (the configuration of woodland and open ground) and predation pressure may be an important influence on population change for curlew in the UK uplands and may be for other waders such as lapwing and dunlin. This evidence can be summarized as follows: (i) the recent catastrophic declines of curlew (and other waders) in Northern Ireland (Birdwatch Ireland 2011), where previous detailed studies have shown that high nest predation is the probable cause of curlew declines, at least (Grant et al. 1999); (ii) higher breeding densities of waders on land managed for grouse than those on land not managed for grouse, due at least in part to predator control (Tharme et al. 2001); (iii) positive effects of experimentally deployed predator control on wader breeding success and population change (Fletcher et al. 2010 ); (iv) lower declines in waders such as lapwing where grouse management was most intensive and larger declines in areas with high densities of carrion crow (Amar et al. 2011a); and (v) the lack of other environmental effects on nesting success and population change in this study (grazing, habitat, topography).

Grant et al, 1999:http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1365-2664.1999.00379.x/full

'Thus, both direct predator control and land-use manipulations will require considerable resources. At present it is difficult to envisage ways in which this could be achieved on a sufficient scale to impact upon curlew populations throughout Northern Ireland, without fundamental changes in systems of agricultural support and associated environmental measures'.

The subsequent ‘catastrophic declines of curlew (and other waders) in Northern Ireland (Birdwatch Ireland 2011)’ would suggest that Grant’s prediction was correct.

The red listing of curlews and lapwing was upgraded from ‘least concern’ to ‘near threatened’ in 2008 and 2015 respectively.

Without ‘fundamental changes in systems of agricultural support and associated environmental measures’, grouse moors (currently largely funded by ‘rich toffs’) are becoming last breeding refuges for these species.

As the BTO suggest grouse moors are also important habitats for Hen harriers, finding ways of keeping them financially viable, whilst somehow protecting hen harriers must be the sustainable way forward.
In Ireland we had a roughly 22% decline in Hen harrier numbers in the last 4 years. No grouse moors. Intensive afforestation of upland areas main reason for decline. Due to CAP agreements huge areas of scrub have been removed in last 2 years, prime harrier habitat. Widespread destruction of bogs even "protected" bogs.
 
Having just caught up with this thread, I'd like to point out that being anti-lead shot, anti-illegal persecution of raptors, anti-damage to SSSIs, concerned about the intensification of flooding and wishing to see those individuals protected by their wealth and position brought to book (and denied public subsidy) for their criminality doesn't make you 'anti-shooting'. To suggest as much is tantamount to accepting that the abuses outlined are a necessary part of shooting (they aren't). The sole reason why driven grouse shooting is an issue subject to very successful online petitions (judged by the success of such campaigns generally) is because the industry has not merely failed to address these problems or simply denied them (although it does do so), but has actively and arrogantly pursued a policy of intensification of illegal persecution. There is no other explanation for the disappearance of male Hen Harriers in 2015, the continued shooting & poisoning of Red Kites in Yorkshire (and elsewhere) and the telling absence of protected birds of prey across many grouse moors. In the light of such endemic criminality and the absence of any serious attempt within the grouse shooting community to deal with this illegality (and other abuses) then the only tenable route is an outright ban. Let's not blame the messenger here, if driven grouse shooting is banned then the blame should fall full square on the industry itself. The sense of entitlement and hubristic arrogance of the shooting/hunting industry blinds them to the reality that whilst they may have the wealth and power, they do not command broader public opinion; the wind of history is blowing against them.
 
Last edited:
Absolutely agree with John and I stand by my comparison with Operation Trident: when it is absolutely apparent that there is a specific crime problem with a particular group within society then there is a clear case for a special task force to deal with it once for all: and the swine that organise and carry out the killing of Hen Harriers, Goshawks and other BOP (lets not forget that even Golden and White-tailed Eagles go missing on grouse moors, these people have no morals at all) certainly constitute such a group.

There is not much time for such a commitment. The shooters are flat out for an end-game.

John
 
Ditto to both Johns :t:

All raptors in Northumbs appear to be declining, and fairly rapidly so. Can't see any hope of anything being done white the current lot are in power; to get a bit political, the best to hope for is a win for Remain in the EU referendum, followed by a big bust-up in the Tories with the Brexiters going over to UKIP, then new elections with the pro-hunting lobby being split between Cameron and UKIP. Divide and rule :t: But can it happen??
 
Ditto to both Johns :t:

All raptors in Northumbs appear to be declining, and fairly rapidly so.

Seriously? Has the Buzzard population in Northumberland ever been higher? Has there ever been more Ospreys in Northumberland? Even Hen Harriers bred successfully last year and from reading between the lines could well do again this year. Marsh harriers are now a regular sight and have (still do?)bred, Peregrine and Merlin are still a regular sight.Even I know of more than one well known reliable site for Goshawks.
I'm of course not suggesting that there isn't an issue with raptor persecution in Northumberland at all but to suggest that all raptors across the entire county are rapidly declining is complete nonsense and does nothing but devalue any valid arguments.
 
Seriously? Has the Buzzard population in Northumberland ever been higher? Has there ever been more Ospreys in Northumberland? Even Hen Harriers bred successfully last year and from reading between the lines could well do again this year. Marsh harriers are now a regular sight and have (still do?)bred, Peregrine and Merlin are still a regular sight.Even I know of more than one well known reliable site for Goshawks.
I'm of course not suggesting that there isn't an issue with raptor persecution in Northumberland at all but to suggest that all raptors across the entire county are rapidly declining is complete nonsense and does nothing but devalue any valid arguments.

Yes we know that Hen Harriers bred last years, but gamekeepers are the biggest possible culprits for the population been so low. I would like to see compulsory jail sentencing for illegally killing any wild bird or animal, if that person that is charged is found guilty in any court in the UK. That might put an end to illegal killing of birds of prey. But until we get a Goverment that will be willing to change the law, it will still continue to happen in the UK. Certainly this Goverment won't change the law, as they've got so many supporters who are hunters, particularly in the countryside.
Ian.
 
I would like to see compulsory jail sentencing for illegally killing any wild bird or animal, if that person that is charged is found guilty in any court in the UK. That might put an end to illegal killing of birds of prey./QUOTE]

Don't forget to make sure they kiss goodbye to their firearms licences, that they can't handle traps especially those that use live decoys, in short make completely sure that a convicted gamekeeper cannot ever be one again. That might give the barbarians pause.... it might even improve the reputation of a very unsavoury profession.

John
 
Warning! This thread is more than 8 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top