Lesser Scaup - Pennington, Gtr Mcr, UK (2 Viewers)

[Ian Mckerchar]

An experienced observer has just phoned me to say they have seen the upperwing afew times now at approx 20:30 (when the sun has gone in) as the bird has become more active and the wing bar is definately................................................. bright white across the secondaries and inner primaries atleast!

Still have to check it out for myself, but in the conditions it was veiwed in tonight I find it hard to argue with. It has also just appeared on the bird information services as a drake Scaup (Greater, although I'm not sure one could show such a 'permanently square head shape and be so small in size?).


It's perhaps a Greater x Lesser hybrid (and why not!) or as London Birder mentions, some bastard back cross from over the years, which given the previous Lesser Scaups 3 year appearance at Pennington (yes, it was a real one, head shape, wing bar etc........) and the likely breeding it undertook during it's time with whatever it came across (randy buggers ducks!) could well be a possibility.

Ian

 

[Rob Smallwood]

Despite my concerns about this bird I'm sure that it is not a (Greater) Scaup - if GS were the rarity then I think it would get pulled to pieces on size, structure etc.

I'm surprised that some of the experts have yet to voice an opinion - come on lads (and lasses)- get off the fence!

 

[Edward woodwood]

I haven't seen this individual and i'm not likely too either but have seen a few thousand Lessers and fewer Greaters. My comments aren't really worth much and Ian has desribed a really excellent and thorough set of observations. The wing bar, head shape, broadness of body, head gloss colour etc do fit Greater. Can't see where else to go with it?

The head shape in the pix looks very like a Scaup too, to me, but i guess something is coming across in the field that aint there in the pix?

Tim

 

[London Birder]

I equally find it difficult to call that a PURE GS from what I've seen (seems to be lacking a certain 'heftiness' I, at least, associate with GS) ... at the mo my money would have to go the hybrid route, though that could change

 

[djprest]

great pics ian,
a bit late now but from your pics i cannot see how apart from the paleness it was considered to be a lesser,the previous pics on surfbirds were poor that said lesser is not that hard to i.d,yes it may be small but 'runts' do occur. anyway well done for sticking your neck out its not easy nowadays with alot of people relying on pagers and the like.

darrell.

 

[djprest]

sorry that should be rob smallwood

 

[Ian Mckerchar]

great pics ian,
a bit late now but from your pics i cannot see how apart from the paleness it was considered to be a lesser,the previous pics on surfbirds were poor that said lesser is not that hard to i.d,yes it may be small but 'runts' do occur. anyway well done for sticking your neck out its not easy nowadays with alot of people relying on pagers and the like.

darrell.

The original reasons for thinking it a Lesser Scaup were:

Bill pattern good for Lesser Scaup, overall size similar to Tufted Duck, head shape not dissimilar to Lesser Scaup, mantle/scaps vermiculations akin to Lesser Scaup. At the original finding any head gloss was not apparent and it was believed that the wing pattern was correct for Lesser Scaup, which it seems may have been a mistake made at the time.

Given that there were many observers searching and expecting the Lesser Scaup to turn up any day (optimistic bunch us!), the finders can be excused for perhaps jumping to the wrong conclusion despite it looking, atleast superficially, very akin to Lesser Scaup, the bird was seen by many experienced observers who didn't raise any suspicions at the time.

I also agree with london birder that it is difficult to call it a pure Greater Scaup, runts may well occur but I have never seen one myself and this bird never gave the impression of being 'pure' GS.

Ian

 

[JANJ]

I´m out of the picture here, but if someone showed me Ian,s pic. and said, this is the Lesser Scaup which I managed to take some pic. of today, I would certainly not agree.
As can be seen in the link Des provided, the higher bill base of Scaup can be quite evident, not to mention the head shape. The North American race mariloides has broder barring on the back compared to marila. On Ian,s pic the upperpart barring is not even near a Lesser, let alone the flank.

Here´s a lot of Lessers:

http://search.pbase.com/search?q=lesser+scaup&b=Search+Photos&c=sp

and Greater:

http://search.pbase.com/search?q=greater+scaup&b=Search+Photos&c=sp

JanJ

 

[Rob Smallwood]

I and a couple of mates saw this bird very shortly after it had been id'd and reported.

Although we had some doubts non of us were certain enough about the finer id points to be sure at the time, equally non of us considered Scaup as an option because it really didn't look like one!

I hope it stays around long enough to go back and take another look - I remain far from convinced that it is a pure Scaup.

I'd be interested to hear from more people who have actually seen the bird.

 

[London Birder]

hopefully a pic will emerge of it alongside some TD's, Surfbirds one seems to have gone ... don't recall ever seeing any 'runt' Aythyas myself

 

[Rob Smallwood]

I still can't upload photos on this thread - but have posted 2 on BirdGuides, one of the half closed wing, and one with a Tufted for comparison.

 

[Jane Turner]

Despite my concerns about this bird I'm sure that it is not a (Greater) Scaup - if GS were the rarity then I think it would get pulled to pieces on size, structure etc.

I'm surprised that some of the experts have yet to voice an opinion - come on lads (and lasses)- get off the fence!

Looks iffy to me - but then again all Aythyas look iffy to me!

 

[Ian Mckerchar]

The original reasons for thinking it a Lesser Scaup were:

Bill pattern good for Lesser Scaup, overall size similar to Tufted Duck, head shape not dissimilar to Lesser Scaup, mantle/scaps vermiculations akin to Lesser Scaup. At the original finding any head gloss was not apparent and it was believed that the wing pattern was correct for Lesser Scaup, which it seems may have been a mistake made at the time.

Given that there were many observers searching and expecting the Lesser Scaup to turn up any day (optimistic bunch us!) the finders can be excused for perhaps jumping to the wrong conclusion despite it looking, atleast superficially, very akin to Lesser Scaup, the bird was seen by many experienced observers who didn't raise any suspicions at the time.

I also agree with london birder that it is difficult to call it a pure Greater Scaup, runts may well occur but I have never seen one myself and this bird never gave the impression of being 'pure' GS.

Ian

With regards my quote (coloured red) above, occasionally optimism pays off!!!

On my way to scrutinise the Pennington 'mid' Scaup this evening, I received a 'phone call from the finder of the bird to say he had relocated the REAL Lesser Scaup at a private, permit only site in the county (where it has been found a previous year), such was his optimism for it's prompt return. After quickly diverting myself to the site it was pleasant to see the bird in it's usual grotty eclipse plumage but with all the right structural features and importantly, the correct upperwing pattern.

I have included one of the finders photo's for any sceptics out there although it's not the best quality, there should be better to come.

I for one though, won't be ignoring the Penninton 'mid' Scaup. A Lesser Scaup it ain't, but then what? Runt Scaup, hybrid Greater/Lesser? Both would probably be rarer than Lesser Scaup, atleast in the UK.

Cheers,

Ian

 

[Rob Smallwood]

Glad it is back safe and sound!

 

[London Birder]

I still can't upload photos on this thread - but have posted 2 on BirdGuides, one of the half closed wing, and one with a Tufted for comparison.

just had a look at those Rob, looks pretty small next to the TD (assuming size illusion is not at work) ... still can't see it being a pure GS and certainly not LS ... hybrid is still my guess (not seen it in field), possibly GS x LS but still amazed by no documented records of these hybridising stateside ...

 

[Joern Lehmhus]

I also do not know any documented case of Greater x Lesser Scaup; but I think the problem may be as with this bird here (Which could very well be such a hybrid! in my opinion), or perhaps even more pronounced - so that the hybrids are within the variation of the parent species.

 

[London Birder]

good point ..

 

[Rob Smallwood]

There is absolutely no criticism intended towards the finders/reporters of this bird.

Like many of the type these "impossible to assign" birds are often more interesting than the pure ones.

I'm certainly learning a lot through this and parallel discussions.

Thanks to all who have contributed so far.

 

[Th_SQ]

I also do not know any documented case of Greater x Lesser Scaup

There are : the Gillham give this hybrid in their book 'Hybrid ducks' : "a male and a female of this cross which were exactly intermediate between the parent species and proved to be fertile".
They talk also of the Pacific Greater Scaup saying it's somewhat intermediate between affinisand marila....

 

[London Birder]

do the Gillhams show a pic?

edit : found the ref in the 5th contribution >

Greater Scaup x Lesser Scaup.
Ay. marila x Ay. affinis.
Cat B. Recs: 2 ~ 2 (1m/1f) ~ both sexes have been described as intermediate, a description which also fits two captive males of the Pacific Scaup (mariloides).

apparently Pacific shows stronger mantle vermics than marila >