pallid harrier? Italy (1 Viewer)

[il gipeto]

Hello, today I've found an interesting pallid/ montagu's harrier.
This is what I've looked:
- concolor orange-light brown belly and breast, without any streaking;
- very dark secondaries;
- no dark trailing edge on underwing;
- showing pictures I notice that primaries are only little dark pointed.
It was flying near a Buzzard, and they were of about the same lenght: buzzard of course appearing more compact and harrier appearing lighter.

For me it's a 2 CY PALLID HARRIER.
I know taht pictures are orrible, what it was very far away when I took out the reflex!

 

[Tib78]

Since there is no plumage details visible, one has to rely on shape and silhouette alone to ID this harrier...not an easy task, but the general structure and especially the long and narrow tail remind more of Montagu's than Pallid. 2cy sounds good according to your description.

 

[il gipeto]

Thank's Tib78. I forgot to say that upperparts were concolor brown, without the tipical pattern of juveniles. Tail had the 2 central feathers dark. Is really possible to find a 2 cy montagu's like this?

 

[Tib78]

Thank's Tib78. I forgot to say that upperparts were concolor brown, without the tipical pattern of juveniles. Tail had the 2 central feathers dark. Is really possible to find a 2 cy montagu's like this?

Returning birds in their 2nd calendar year are worn and thus show more uniform upperparts because the pale fringes on the wing coverts are abraded. But that doesn't really help the ID, since both Pallid and Montagu's are similar in this respect.

Some examples:

Pallid: http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=muu1213857532&lang=eng

Montagu's: http://fugler.oskarkb.no/nye/bilder/bilde.asp?BildeID=5555&XIF=ON

Regarding the tail, D.Forsman states that, during their 1st winter, many juveniles Montagu's "replace one or a few tail-feathers, normally starting with the central pair."

 

[gerdwichers8]

The Montagu´s, Tib78 linked is perhaps not the easiest bird for argumentation..was it even positively identified as such? It makes me suffer!

 

[il gipeto]

The Montagu´s, Tib78 linked is perhaps not the easiest bird for argumentation..was it even positively identified as such? It makes me suffer!

I have the same doubt: I am looking the picture from a phone but it seems to me a 2cy male pallid

 

[Biancone]

Regarding the tail, D.Forsman states that, during their 1st winter, many juveniles Montagu's "replace one or a few tail-feathers, normally starting with the central pair."

He also says that Pallid early 2cy on average moult later than Montagu's and many returning birds have only changed some body plumage. So if the birds stick to being average that might suggest your bird, with presumed new tail feathers, was Montagu's. On the other hand, your images look a little broad at the wingtip and hand, possibly suggestive of Pallid, but I cannot ID this bird on shape alone! Good luck!
Brian

 

[il gipeto]

The same picture, elaborated on photoshop. Can we say that is really a pallid harrier? For me yes

 

[Tib78]

The Montagu´s, Tib78 linked is perhaps not the easiest bird for argumentation..was it even positively identified as such? It makes me suffer!

Definitly not the easiest bird to bring up for discussion, I agree. But IDed as a Montagu's by Andrea 'macrourus' Corso.

The same picture, elaborated on photoshop. Can we say that is really a pallid harrier? For me yes

Well not for me . Perhaps you could PM Andrea and ask for his opinion.

 

[gvla]

I think that the feature of the moulted central rectrices during this period indicates Montagus.
I attached a photo of a 2cy male montagus a week before in Athens in order to take a picture of the moult progress in plumage.

Don't forget also that the wing/tail proportion in juveniles/2cy ringtails harriers is not so charcteristic as in adults.

 

[il gipeto]

the 2 central feathers of the tail appeared darker but not moulted like this. It's a doubtful caracther because I'm note sure abuot this: I only remember that outher feathers were lighter and the tail appeared to me the tipical tail of an harrier. It wasn't moulted like the latter picture. I'm not sure of the tail, it's better to put this caracther out.