Par 2: Maven and Swarovski (2 Viewers)

[ClarkWGriswold]

Great review Steve. Thoroughly enjoyed reading it. You have a very accessible style which I appreciate.

Rich

 

[kkokkolis]

Yeah Kamakura makes the Maven binoculars.

Kamakura Japan or Kamakura China?

Are we going to see the same binocular with other branding also?

The only binoculars I "need" are 30mm roofs. I limited my options to Zeiss Conquest HD (very happy with the 8x42), Zeiss Terra ED (very happy with the 8x42 also, at their price, choice will be made by available budget) and Kowa XD (an alternative). Now the B3 gets in the equation. Reviews are encouraging (although most praise comes from 1 individual person), price is right and the form factor is very appealing. I'm afraid I might pay for tolls though, while the former three are all available locally or used through BF from Great Britain (I almost hit the button for the Conquest classified but holded myself thinking that I already carry the 8x42 and might need something different, maybe in 10x, and haven't decided yet).

A silly question. What would you engrave in the customized Maven? Your name (but if you want to sell it)? Your darlings' name(s) (done that on Swiss Army Knives). A latin motto? Do they only have latin fonts btw? There are a lot of Greek mottos I would choose to engrave.

About their optics I can't comment. I hope my eyes will like them if I choose them. My main worries are color aberrations and spikes.

 

[Troubador]

ou[/I] are the one that started this whole shebang by calling stores to see how many Swaros were returned for focuser problems and then presenting that as "evidence" that wonky Swaro focusers were only .05%.

That effort was directly aimed at me, and you even tried to lure me into your scheme with emails

Brock

This is just paranoid Brock.

Nothing was aimed at you, only 'aimed' at finding out some facts rather than supposition. And I asked you to participate rather than do it behind your back so that you could be part of it.

Flawed methodology or inadequate methodology, call it what you like, it was an attempt to cast some light on the issue, and nothing to do with getting at you. But I don't think you want any light cast on the subject.

Whatever I started and where-ever I started it I am not responsible for what others post thereafter or the words they choose to do so.

Whatever anyone started there is no need for stuff like 'eat crow'.

Over here in the UK, visiting our local bird reserves or indeed at Bird Fair, you can see plenty of Swaro ELs around the necks of birders. These numbers grew over several years and numbers of other alphas, especially Leicas, reduced. Hunters might be Swaro's biggest customer base worldwide and for all I know might be so in the UK, but the numbers of birders with ELs (as seen on three days at Bird Fair) are enormous. Even out here on the Western Isles, Swaro ELs are by far the most likely alphas to be seen around the necks of visiting birders. I don't see how it can be possible for this market penetration to be achieved over several years if birders were having problems with the focusers. If they were then word would quickly spread, folks would stop recommending them.

Now get this: the previous paragraph is me stating my perception of Swaro in the UK market. It is not aimed as some personal attack on you, just because you have a different perception in the USA.

Lee

 

[Steve C]

Kamakura Japan or Kamakura China?

Are we going to see the same binocular with other branding also?

The only binoculars I "need" are 30mm roofs. I limited my options to Zeiss Conquest HD (very happy with the 8x42), Zeiss Terra ED (very happy with the 8x42 also, at their price, choice will be made by available budget) and Kowa XD (an alternative). Now the B3 gets in the equation. Reviews are encouraging (although most praise comes from 1 individual person), price is right and the form factor is very appealing. I'm afraid I might pay for tolls though, while the former three are all available locally or used through BF from Great Britain (I almost hit the button for the Conquest classified but holded myself thinking that I already carry the 8x42 and might need something different, maybe in 10x, and haven't decided yet).

A silly question. What would you engrave in the customized Maven? Your name (but if you want to sell it)? Your darlings' name(s) (done that on Swiss Army Knives). A latin motto? Do they only have latin fonts btw? There are a lot of Greek mottos I would choose to engrave.

About their optics I can't comment. I hope my eyes will like them if I choose them. My main worries are color aberrations and spikes.

Kamakura in Japan.

As to the same binocular in other branding, that is always a possibility, but I have no idea either if, when, or where it may happen.

The B2 is a better glass than the Conquest. However that is relative and depends on how the question is posed. If the question is "which is the better binocular?", then my answer is the B2. if the question is "is the B2 enough better than the Conquest to upgrade?" then the answer may be no. Depends on if you are looking or are simply comparing to what you have. It also depends on if you are happy with what you have. If I had a Conquest, I would certainly be happy enough with it, although some do have certain issues with the Conquest.

Let me add my praise, at the same level as the B2, for the B3. Frank got it right in his B3 review. It is a terrific binocular. I have had it side by side with several other 8x 30-32 mm stuff and I would not trade straight across for a Conquest 8x32. I would also not trade straight across for a Swarovski 8x30 CL either. My two binocular combo of the 8x30 B3 and the 9x45 B2 will easily let me do whatever it is I may need from handheld binoculars wherever I need to do it. Again it comes down to whether you are happy with what you have. Since Maven sales in Europe may well be years away and since you evidently can obtain Conquest HD's and are happy with them, the I'd advise you to be happy with them.

What you choose to engrave on a Maven binocular is whatever you want. I think the limit is some 30 characters and goes on the non diopter ring under the eye cup. I chose no engraving. If there is a Greek motto for be happy with what you have, that might be a good one

I am not particularly sensitive to CA, but the B3 seems to control it pretty well. I see no spikes when focusing on night lights or stars etc. I needed to put a thin 0-ring under the screw out eye cups to adjust the eye relief a little on the B3.

 

[Steve C]

I posted this comparison as in informative comparative evaluation. I do not say the Maven is better than the Swarovski, I do not say the Swarovski is better than the Maven, I do not even intend to say the Maven is as good as a Swarovski. I simply think the Maven line of optics is worth a look for any person actually interested in honest evaluation of optics. Each has sits strengths and weaknesses.

Now can we please re center this discussion. Leave Brock alone. Let him live nursing his sore tooth. I have no intention of ever again responding to him and I make a simple request of everyone involved in the tread to just ignore him. He can say what he wants to say. Just please leave it at that. I should have been smart enough to follow my own advice.

 

[kkokkolis]

I'm perfectly happy with the Conquest 8x42, but I might have use for the Maven B3 8x30 and "maybe" the 11x45 later on.
There are many Greek verbs about that, Μέτρον Άριστον, Μηδέν Άγαν and my favourite Τετραφάρμακος, Άφοβον τον θεόν, ανύποπτον τον θάνατον και τ'αγαθόν μεν εύκτητον, το δε δεινόν ευκαρτέρητον. But that's long.

 

[Steve C]

I'm perfectly happy with the Conquest 8x42, but I might have use for the Maven B3 8x30 and "maybe" the 11x45 later on.
There are many Greek verbs about that, Μέτρον Άριστον, Μηδέν Άγαν and my favourite Τετραφάρμακος, Άφοβον τον θεόν, ανύποπτον τον θάνατον και τ'αγαθόν μεν εύκτητον, το δε δεινόν ευκαρτέρητον. But that's long.

Kind of hard to say which I'd use. It's all Greek to me

 

[SuperDuty]

As with all things made by human hands, I'm sure there are things about the 10X50 SV that could stand improvement. If I were bothered by RB to any degree,they might be a no go, but when I look through them any little fault just disappears into the overall superior image. The Swarovision view for me is pure magic, for others there is no magic in any optic. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.:t:

 

[Hermann]

Very nice review Steve. Sounds like a terrific binocular. I'd quite like to have a look at the Maven, especially as it's one of the few bins nowadays that has AK-prisms and is (almost ... :king portable. Maybe some supplier in Europe will have a word with Maven about importing them into Europe.

Before I forget it: Can you perhaps check the dioptre correction range? Is it +/- 3 diopters or more? I really need something like +/-4 diopters minimum, +/-5 diopters would be better.

Hermann

 

[Steve C]

Hermann

The diopter range is +/- 4

 

[brocknroller]

Brock,

"It's not What you say, but How you say it, and sometimes, When you say it". For the sake of this thread, post #12 was perfect...concise, respectful, inquisitive and supportive. Your thoughtful comments were well understood and appreciated.

I also see RB in the SV's and have had a wonky focuser, It Happens. But That is not what this thread was suppose to be about. I'm a defender of your right to state, and even debate your findings and comments about pro and con issues in constructive ways, just what new and seasoned BF members want and need to hear. You did so very well in #12 my friend. IMHO, all the others could have been handled through PM's. :t:

Ted

Well said, Ted. You just made by Buddy List. Unfortunately, I can't go back and change or delete the posts after #12 since the time has expired, and some of what I later said was to clarify what I wrote earlier since some people have short or selective memories, but an elephant never forgets!

Anyway, time for a vacation after I finish this next article. Too much work and not enough play makes Brock a Grumpy Old Man (of course, I wouldn't mind being the one that wooed Ann-Margret). :smoke:

Please excuse my interruption of the Maven vs. the RB EL discussion.

Brock

 

[Theo98]

You just made by Buddy List....

Anyway, time for a vacation after I finish this next article...

Brock

You've been on my buddy list with way too much experience, knowledge and assistance to ignore! :t:

I'm new here and with many fine members, like yourself, that offer excellent help and guidance in making informed optic decisions, we can all better enjoy glassing with the investments we are comfortable with! :t:

Thanks to All for Sharing! :king:

Ted

 

[David Swain]

I'm new here and with many fine members, like yourself, that offer excellent help and guidance in making informed optic decisions, we can all better enjoy glassing with the investments we are comfortable with! :t:

3

 

[Steve C]

Steve,

Many thanks for the reports. The Maven models, particularly the B2, appear to be shaking things up in thir price ranges. Sounds a very impressive binocular, but can't help noticing the weight. I'd agree the Razor HD 10x50 is very good too and would be my pick of the others at around that price, and it has the virtue of been much lighter. I'd be interested in how you think it might compare on view though.

The Kite Lynx appears ot be a close relative of the B3 and they had an AK prismed model listed on their site briefly, but I understand that's been shelved for the moment. I'm not sure how close their new Bonelli 2.0 is to the B1 but it's very good indeed. I believe other companies are taking a close look at the platforms too., but the question of weight has cropped up. 33 ounces, 940g, is a lot in my book.

David

David,

Sorry for the delay in answering this. I have hopes the thread degradation has come to an end and perhaps it might be safe to continue.

I like the Razor 10x50 HD. I think it is about the same relative comparison between it and the Razor HD 10x42 as exists between the Swarovision 10x42 and 10x50. My gut instinct based on memory alone (never a good thing to rely on) is that the Maven is a better glass. But keep in mind I have not had them side by side and I don't know when I might be able to make that happen. I was initially drawn to the Razor HD 10x50 because I figured maybe I needed a 10x at a 5 mm EP to see the detail I don't really get with a 10x42-43. I agree the weight may be a factor. I am not sure what the light transmission is on the Razor HD either.

One thing I will say about the SV EL 10x50 is that it certainly verifies my notion that I am personally better off with a 10x50 vs a 10x42. Others certainly seem to feel the same way.

There seems no reason that big AK platform would not attract other interest, but who will work it out first, when and where is simply conjecture. As I understand it, a company such as Maven can get exclusivity from a company from Kamakura, but that won't come cheap. I have no idea of how that works, but that is my basic understanding.

Yes it is heavy, but since the B2 is balanced rearward of the hinge center I'd pay attention to the balance comments of the Zeiss SF. It simply does not feel as heavy as it's weight would indicate.

I am not sure about the Bonelli and B1 relationship either, but practically the same specs from the same OEM is cause for wonder.

I'd like to see a Kite Lynx, but it has some work to to do best the B3 in any real world way.

 

[brocknroller]

Steve,

Degradation? Did Arthur teach you that big word?

It seems that a better apples to apples comparison of a Swaro to a 9x45 Maven B2 would be with a Swarovski 10x42 SLC (HD). (an even better comparison would be with a 10x42 HT since it also has A/K prisms and it's also marketed to hunters)

Like the B2, the SLC doesn't have field flatteners, and it has ample pincushion so RB won't be an issue. Having tried it, I can attest that it doesn't need FFs since the edge sharpness is excellent (90-95%). Arek from allbinos agrees with this assessment. Plus there's only 3mm difference in aperture not 5mm. Mooreorless in the same class.

In fact, after looking through the 10x42 SLC-HD, I wondered why Swaro even bothered with field flatteners and the mustache distortion pattern in the SV EL when its engineers are quite capable of making flat field views w/out FF and AMD? Seems like they've gone to extremes for no reason other than to copy the EDG.

Also, unlike the SV EL, the SLC is marketed to hunters. I see from your posts on Optics Talk that you've tried the 10x42 SLC (HD).

differences-between-swarovski-slc-and-el-binucalrs

What I'd like to read is a comparison btwn the B2 and SLC-HD. I really like the SLC, but not the $1,800 price tag. If the B2 delivers mooreorless (he tried the 10x SLC, too) the same performance, I think I might be persuaded to try the B2 when I'm flush, as I'm sure others who are on a tight budget (or are just plain stingy) would be, too.

I don't expect you to do this from memory, but if you ever get your B2 side by side with a 10x SLC, I'd like to hear how they compare.

Brock

 

[Steve C]

Steve,

Degradation? Did Arthur teach you that big word?


Brock

If you have a beef with me, fine. Just be decent enough to leave Arthur out of it.

 

[typo]

Steve,

I don't think I've ever compared the ELSV 10x42 to the 10x50 directly but I did like the latter better than the 8.5x42. I can't think of any reason why an x50 should be inherently better than an x42, but it seems to be with the Razor HD and I can think of other examples at various price points where the x50 it is as well.

Just to add another dimension to the saga, I've just heard I have a Kite Bonelli 2.0 8x42 on it's way to me for evaluation. Obviously no AK prisms, but my brief try at the BirdFair really impressed. It will be interesting to see how another example of Kamakura's latest designs stacks up on a more considered evaluation. This ones is 820g or 29oz.

David

 

[Steve C]

Steve,

I don't think I've ever compared the ELSV 10x42 to the 10x50 directly but I did like the latter better than the 8.5x42. I can't think of any reason why an x50 should be inherently better than an x42, but it seems to be with the Razor HD and I can think of other examples at various price points where the x50 it is as well.

Just to add another dimension to the saga, I've just heard I have a Kite Bonelli 2.0 8x42 on it's way to me for evaluation. Obviously no AK prisms, but my brief try at the BirdFair really impressed. It will be interesting to see how another example of Kamakura's latest designs stacks up on a more considered evaluation. This ones is 820g or 29oz.

David

I'm' not sure of an inherent reason either. But all the extra light from the bigger objective has to have a role in what is a pretty obvious, yet very hard to define difference in favor of the 50 EL vs the 42 EL.

 

[brocknroller]

If you have a beef with me, fine. Just be decent enough to leave Arthur out of it.

Joking, I guess you missed the smilie and Arthur's spate of $10 words and my ribbing him about them. Oh, well. Never mind.

<B>

 

[SuperDuty]

When comparing the two, it's almost as if the view is somehow freed up in the horizontal plane with the 50. The view appeared less confused and congested in comparison to the 42, a binocular I was convinced up until then couldn't be beat for ease of view. As you said, it's hard to define, and this may sound like gibberish.3

a pretty obvious, yet very hard to define difference in favor of the 50 EL vs the 42 EL.