Pied/White Wagtail ID (1 Viewer)

[PaulCountyDurham]

Hi all,

'Really struggling to ID this wagtail. The only thing I think I can safely rule out is it's not an adult male pied wagtail. Is this a female pied wagtail, a white wagtail or a junior pied wagtail? I've read around and looked at pictures and it's not clear to me. I think it's a female pied wagtail. Clarification appreciated.

Thanks,
Paul

 

[Butty]

Could you give the location and the date? Thanks.

 

[PaulCountyDurham]

Could you give the location and the date? Thanks.

Ah yes, forgot the location: Frosterley, County Durham, not far off the Cumbrian border. Taken yesterday.

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Knowing location and date, it is easy to say its a female Pied Wagtail (a juvenile/moulting to first winter bird is much different and has fresh greater coverts). But this is one of those birds I would only identify by location (if this is considered possible, but thats another question imo)

• The rump is paler than the blackish uppertail-coverts
• the flanks are whitish with only a little dark grey on upper flanks
• the back is dark enough for a female Pied, but within variation for albas breeding in Germany (yes, picture is very slightly overexposed)

Edit: yes, misplaced feathers can mask here, that flanks might be more extensive dark. I am unsure after a second look.

 

[PaulCountyDurham]

Knowing location and date, it is easy to say its a female Pied Wagtail (a juvenile/moulting to first winter bird is much different and has fresh greater coverts). But this is one of those birds I would only identify by location (if this is considered possible, but thats another question imo)

• The rump is paler than the blackish uppertail-coverts
• the flanks are whitish with only a little dark grey on upper flanks
• the back is dark enough for a female Pied, but within variation for albas breeding in Germany (yes, picture is very slightly overexposed)

Edit: yes, misplaced feathers can mask here, that flanks might be more extensive dark. I am unsure after a second look.

Thanks Alexander, I'll keep looking to see if I can identify!

 

[PaulCountyDurham]

Knowing location and date, it is easy to say its a female Pied Wagtail (a juvenile/moulting to first winter bird is much different and has fresh greater coverts). But this is one of those birds I would only identify by location (if this is considered possible, but thats another question imo)

• The rump is paler than the blackish uppertail-coverts
• the flanks are whitish with only a little dark grey on upper flanks
• the back is dark enough for a female Pied, but within variation for albas breeding in Germany (yes, picture is very slightly overexposed)

Edit: yes, misplaced feathers can mask here, that flanks might be more extensive dark. I am unsure after a second look.

I've been doing a bit more reading around Alexander, and from what I can gather the bird is probably a first year female pied wagtail? There isn't a great deal of black on the mantle but I think I detect on this bird that the black on its throat doesn't extend towards the breast as far as that of a white wagtail.

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello Paul,
do you say that this is probably a 2 cy female (=first year)?
Your Wagtail is at least 1 year old by

• extensive black on crown reaching towards neck
• black on throat and breast forming the right patch for an adult bird

juvenile or first winter birds still look young in mid July, at least White Wagtails in Germany.

Very worn and bleached brownish greater coverts (with a contrast to less worn blackish/white fringed ones) might make this indeed a 2cy bird? I am no expert in this and hope like you for others to jump in!

 

[PaulCountyDurham]

Hello Paul,
do you say that this is probably a 2 cy female (=first year)?
Your Wagtail is at least 1 year old by

• extensive black on crown reaching towards neck
• black on throat and breast forming the right patch for an adult bird

juvenile or first winter birds still look young in mid July, at least White Wagtails in Germany.

Very worn and bleached brownish greater coverts (with a contrast to less worn blackish/white fringed ones) might make this indeed a 2cy bird? I am no expert in this and hope like you for others to jump in!

Thanks Alexander.

I'm borrowing what I can see on internet sites and a first summer female pied wagtail, at least the pictures I've seen, look very much like this bird. That's just my inexperienced guess based upon what I've seen and other people's views of distinguishing features.

 

[Butty]

I suspect some age-terminology confusion here. '1st-summer' means 1 year old, i.e. the summer after the summer of hatching, i.e. the 2nd calendar year.
I don't know but would guess that, (unless in the hand) 1-year-old pied wags are indistinguishable from any bird older than that, i.e. all birds that are 1 year old or older would be called 'adult'.

 

[PaulCountyDurham]

I suspect some age-terminology confusion here. '1st-summer' means 1 year old, i.e. the summer after the summer of hatching, i.e. the 2nd calendar year.
I don't know but would guess that, (unless in the hand) 1-year-old pied wags are indistinguishable from any bird older than that, i.e. all birds that are 1 year old or older would be called 'adult'.

According to what I've read from articles published by people dedicated to these things, 1st summer female pied wagtails are distinguishable from adult female pied wagtails: particularly the extent of black on the mantle. These people went on to say that while adult pied wagtails have black on the mantle, adult white wagtails never do which leads some people to confuse 1st summer female pied wagtails with white wagtails (because 1st summer female pied wagtails have barely any black on the mantle). They went on to say that they distinguish 1st summer female pied wagtails from white wagtails by the extent to which the black around the neck area extends to the breast: when I looked at various pictures I couldn't detect much difference but those who know about these things clearly can. The articles I've read suggested that people take care when trying to identify wagtails in the summer: white versus 1st summer female pied, which suggests to me that they're pretty close in appearance, and as the 1st summer female develops she becomes much more easily identifiable as a pied wagtail.

Either way, it's all about picking up a bit of knowledge here and there, so while I might not be able to see what they're seeing, e.g. extent of black extending to breast, I at least know what they're looking for!

 

[Durham bird watcher]

Hi Paul, I am also a Paul from Co. Durham, when I saw your post I thought this is a coincidence, not the name and Durham but I just joined the forum a couple of hours ago, and the main reason being I was hoping to find knowledge on the bird that walked across my lawn pecking for food today, it looked very similar to a pied wagtail but the differnce was the head it was completely white, I watched it for @ 2 minutes, ran upstaires to get my phone to get a picture of it but to late it had flown. Not wanting to give up did a bit research and found the Amur white wagtail also found in Seaham, Durham in 2005 this picture I am looking at has a white head but the wings look half black and half white, where as the bird I saw today had a similar white head but more black with white slashes in the wings very similar to a Pied Wagtail,

 

[PaulCountyDurham]

Hi Paul, I am also a Paul from Co. Durham, when I saw your post I thought this is a coincidence, not the name and Durham but I just joined the forum a couple of hours ago, and the main reason being I was hoping to find knowledge on the bird that walked across my lawn pecking for food today, it looked very similar to a pied wagtail but the differnce was the head it was completely white, I watched it for @ 2 minutes, ran upstaires to get my phone to get a picture of it but to late it had flown. Not wanting to give up did a bit research and found the Amur white wagtail also found in Seaham, Durham in 2005 this picture I am looking at has a white head but the wings look half black and half white, where as the bird I saw today had a similar white head but more black with white slashes in the wings very similar to a Pied Wagtail,

'Sounds like you saw a nice looking bird, Paul!