Good day dear friends, can I ask you for help with this male bunting. It's thought by some experts on Inaturalist.org to be a Pine Bunting x Yellowhammer hybrid because of that brownish star-like area (ring) around the eye. I'm not sure about this. Thank you in advance, Vadim.
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Pine Bunting x Yellowhammer hybrid ? Perm, Russia (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter vadim L
- Start date
Grahame Walbridge
Well-known member
Vadim, inaturalist.org are correct in their assessment, the rufous above the eye and malar area confirm your bird is a hybrid, one of the the more subtle examples, possibly older generation. https://www.researchgate.net/public...bunting_in_Russia_Dutch_Birding_2003_25_17-31
Grahame
Grahame, thank You very much for Your reply! I've lost the bet but am satisfied with the fact being established.
Vadim
Am I right to think that such birds only count as hybrids in the hybridisation zone, not in Europe, for example?
www.birdforum.net
EDIT: How high does the score need to be for a hybrid to be accepted in Europe?
Just a yellowhammer? 2nd April 2023, Littleport, Cambridgeshire, UK
Hi all, came across this bird which I had down as a yellowhammer but the red/maroon colouring really threw me off. Could it be a hybrid? Attached are two pictures of the bird, one with a female yellowhammer next to it. Many thanks Evan
www.birdforum.net
EDIT: How high does the score need to be for a hybrid to be accepted in Europe?
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lou salomon
the birdonist
more obvious hybrid
a more obvious hybrid recently from Romania: https://rombird.ro/resized/uploaded---images/800/800/obs-untitled_4_of_5.8.jpgAm I right to think that such birds only count as hybrids in the hybridisation zone, not in Europe, for example?
Just a yellowhammer? 2nd April 2023, Littleport, Cambridgeshire, UK
Hi all, came across this bird which I had down as a yellowhammer but the red/maroon colouring really threw me off. Could it be a hybrid? Attached are two pictures of the bird, one with a female yellowhammer next to it. Many thanks Evan
EDIT: How high does the score need to be for a hybrid to be accepted in Europe?
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I caught myself using the colloquial definition of Europe, which may cause ID trouble (it wasn't intended as a trick question in that respect). I should've said within vs outside the WP, and not Europe.
EDIT: And it's not the fault of anyone here that the same bird in a different location may be different species/hybrid/subspecies (like with Bean Geese, probably, or 'Baltic' Gulls, or Redpolls).
EDIT: And it's not the fault of anyone here that the same bird in a different location may be different species/hybrid/subspecies (like with Bean Geese, probably, or 'Baltic' Gulls, or Redpolls).
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If you or @Evan Atkinson use eBird or a similar system, I would be very tempted to use the slash Yellowhammer/Pine Bunting (only ten such records in eBird, so its potential potential is not fully realised), as it's not a pure Yellowhammer but, depending on location may be considered a Pine Bunting hybrid, so (somewhat) in a grey area--much like (I believe) Larus sp. would be used for a bird that lies between, e.g., Herring Gull and Caspian Gull, but not all features could be examined confidently enough to confirm a hybrid, or the way one would use redpoll sp. for unassignable Redpolls.
ebird.org
I like the way Zulfu Farajli uses the label in an area in which both are reasonably possible.
It would have to be reserved for special cases in areas in which Pine Bunting ancestry is reasonably rare, as it is a slightly different case than the above): that is, when the bird's appearance suggests that there is a chance that it comes from the hybridisation zone (which may be slim, but the possibility can't be casually proved or disproved).
Still, eBird assigns slashes to the most probable species in a given area (from what I remember reading): Yellowhammer, in this case, so there should be no harm to the data model.
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ebird.org
It would have to be reserved for special cases in areas in which Pine Bunting ancestry is reasonably rare, as it is a slightly different case than the above): that is, when the bird's appearance suggests that there is a chance that it comes from the hybridisation zone (which may be slim, but the possibility can't be casually proved or disproved).
Still, eBird assigns slashes to the most probable species in a given area (from what I remember reading): Yellowhammer, in this case, so there should be no harm to the data model.
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Good to stumble upon this topic, since I kind of 'forgot' my sighting of a hybrid type bird on a trip in North-eastern Poland in 2019:
observation.org
Have not scored the hybrid index mentioned in the DB article, but it looks good for one imho.
Hybrid Yellowhammer x Pine Bunting - Emberiza citrinella x Emberiza leucocephalos
1 present 2019-07-24 Zbionrnik Siemianowka (Poland)
observation.org
Have not scored the hybrid index mentioned in the DB article, but it looks good for one imho.
I hope I have it figured now.
One part of the table gives 4-14 as the range for yellow hybrids, but another part of this table gives the range 3-7 for both trait II (throat) and trait III (eye): so at least 6 would be required for a yellow hybrid, not 4. The eye markings in your bird look like at least 3, so whether it's a hybrid or not probably hangs on whether the throat markings are enough to qualify as 3*. And, in order to avoid assessing such characters, people prefer to accept individuals that are scored noticeably above that (e.g. have an all chestnut throat).
I can't ID your bird, but it's definitely out of the ordinary.
*(EDIT: Though I have an unsubstantiated feeling that an entirely chestnut throat or a fully developed chestnut face mask would be enough by themselves.)
One part of the table gives 4-14 as the range for yellow hybrids, but another part of this table gives the range 3-7 for both trait II (throat) and trait III (eye): so at least 6 would be required for a yellow hybrid, not 4. The eye markings in your bird look like at least 3, so whether it's a hybrid or not probably hangs on whether the throat markings are enough to qualify as 3*. And, in order to avoid assessing such characters, people prefer to accept individuals that are scored noticeably above that (e.g. have an all chestnut throat).
I can't ID your bird, but it's definitely out of the ordinary.
*(EDIT: Though I have an unsubstantiated feeling that an entirely chestnut throat or a fully developed chestnut face mask would be enough by themselves.)
Which wasn't intended as offensive, though you'll probably realise where it's coming from.
