Reed Bunting ssp - Turkey (1 Viewer)

[tom tams]

Reed Bunting ssp, photographed at the fish pens on the Manavgat river, Turkey. 18/02/2024. From what I have read on distribution I'm thinking this is Emberiza schoeniclus caspia but can Emberiza schoeniclus reiseri be ruled out. During my search some are calling (E.s. caspia) Thick-billed Reed Bunting, others Caspian Reed Bunting

 

[Grahame Walbridge]

Reed Bunting ssp, photographed at the fish pens on the Manavgat river, Turkey. 18/02/2024. From what I have read on distribution I'm thinking this is Emberiza schoeniclus caspia but can Emberiza schoeniclus reiseri be ruled out. During my search some are calling (E.s. caspia) Thick-billed Reed Bunting, others Caspian Reed Bunting

A very tough call Tom and in truth I don't know the answer. According to 'Handbook West Palearctic Birds' map reiseri is the default ssp. wintering across much of Turkey. Assessment of precise bill structure is made difficult when the head is turning away and slightly down, as in this instance, but I'd suggest the curvature of the culmen is not nearly as marked if you compare with ML204234931 - Reed Bunting - Macaulay Library However, this is just one example and there is likely range of variation in all taxa.

Grahame

Edit Here's a presumed (juvenile) reiseri from W Turkey ML600955311 - Reed Bunting - Macaulay Library note similarity of bill to caspia from Van above. Seems that subtle average differences exist in plumage, notably, reiseri is generally darker, more boldly streaked with grey collar/upper mantle, scapulars and rump.

Suggest @kuzeycem is better placed to comment.

 

[tom tams]

Hi Grahame, thanks for the reply.
Since posting this up I have been doing a little more research. I'm not sure how up to date the Handbook of West Palearctic Birds is, I've been looking at The Clements Checklist sixth edition (2007) and it has (E. s. reiseri) from S Yugoslavia (Macedonia now) to sw Albania and n Greece - Avibase has Geographic range: Emberiza schoeniclus reiseri: Albania, Macedonia, and northern Greece Source: Clements checklist 2023
(E. s. caspia) E Caucasus to w and s Iran, Syria, adj. se Turkey and ne Iraq - Avibase has Geographic range: Emberiza schoeniclus caspia: E Caucasus to w and s Iran, Syria, adj. se Turkey and ne Iraq. Source: Clements checklist
So according to this (reiseri) must not occur in Turkey, or have I misinterpreted it

 

[Brian J Small]

E. s. reiseri	Hartert, EJO, 1904	se Albania, nw Greece, Macedonia and w, c Turkey
E. s. caspia	Ménétriés, 1832	e Turkey, the Caucasus and n Iran

 

[Butty]

I have been doing a little more research

Unless they state otherwise, your sources will be giving breeding ranges. If all you want to know is what subspecies breeds at that location, then the answer is easy and not particularly useful or interesting. I presumed you wish to consider which other (migrant) races might winter at that location - in which case it's their morphology you need to be interested in.

 

[tom tams]

Unless they state otherwise, your sources will be giving breeding ranges. If all you want to know is what subspecies breeds at that location, then the answer is easy and not particularly useful or interesting. I presumed you wish to consider which other (migrant) races might winter at that location - in which case it's their morphology you need to be interested in.

The answer is not easy to find, and it is particularly useful and interesting to me thank you

 

[Butty]

It's easy to think that one is learning/achieving something 'extra' by knowing a bird's subspecies - but this is often (even usually) not so. My point about breeding ranges, and about how useful/interesting it is to know a bird's likely/probable/possible race once you do know it, does hold. If you think it is useful to know (or, rather, guess at if it's a migrant) your bird's race you could start easily with Wiki: 'E. s. reiseri from southeast Albania, northwest Greece, south North Macedonia and west and central Turkey,' - which answers your question (Mr Small is quoting above another and I'm sure more-grown-up source which gives you the same answer - and your own Avibase, etc., data were clearly incomplete because they don't include central Turkey at all). Except that this doesn't answer your question, because reed bunting apparently is not a very-local breeder at your site, so you need to consider where your birds might have bred and what races that would suggest: perhaps reiseri (central etc. Turkey), or the nominate (most of Europe), or caspia (E Turkey and NW Iran), or passerina (NW Siberia), or pallidior (SW Siberia), or ukrainae (Ukraine and adjacent Russia), or incognita (SE European Russia); and maybe others. And, to do that...

it's their morphology you need to be interested in.

- which might mean having the birds in the hand for measurements - or even access to a major skin collection.
Or... you can just call them reed buntings (my personal preference).

 

[kuzeycem]

Hi all,
I must admit I don't have any more knowledge on this than some who have already commented. I think this bird would be a good match with 'my' local Ankara breeding birds, which on distribution should be reiseri, and I'd assume this would be the more likely ssp to occur in winter in Antalya (over caspia):

TRAKUS | Fotogaleri | Bataklık KirazkuÅu

TRAKUS Tür için.

www.trakus.org

TRAKUS | Fotogaleri | Bataklık KirazkuÅu

TRAKUS YaÄlıkpınar

www.trakus.org

TRAKUS | Fotogaleri | Bataklık KirazkuÅu

TRAKUS Ankara...

www.trakus.org

TRAKUS | Fotogaleri | Bataklık KirazkuÅu

TRAKUS Bugün Mogan. Bu yılın ergenlerinden, bıyıkları bile terlemiŠ:)

www.trakus.org

However reiseri and caspia are extremely similar and even BOW and HWPB aren't of much help between these two, as the former only says that caspia is paler and the latter only hints that reiseri has a more bulbous bill than caspia... which, by looking at birds photographed during the summer at Inner and East Anatolia on Macaulay Library, is a notion I don't think I can agree with!
Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

 

[tom tams]

Hi all,
I must admit I don't have any more knowledge on this than some who have already commented. I think this bird would be a good match with 'my' local Ankara breeding birds, which on distribution should be reiseri, and I'd assume this would be the more likely ssp to occur in winter in Antalya (over caspia):

TRAKUS | Fotogaleri | Bataklık KirazkuÅu

TRAKUS Tür için.

www.trakus.org

TRAKUS | Fotogaleri | Bataklık KirazkuÅu

TRAKUS YaÄlıkpınar

www.trakus.org

TRAKUS | Fotogaleri | Bataklık KirazkuÅu

TRAKUS Ankara...

www.trakus.org

TRAKUS | Fotogaleri | Bataklık KirazkuÅu

TRAKUS Bugün Mogan. Bu yılın ergenlerinden, bıyıkları bile terlemiŠ:)

www.trakus.org

However reiseri and caspia are extremely similar and even BOW and HWPB aren't of much help between these two, as the former only says that caspia is paler and the latter only hints that reiseri has a more bulbous bill than caspia... which, by looking at birds photographed during the summer at Inner and East Anatolia on Macaulay Library, is a notion I don't think I can agree with!
Sorry I couldn't be of more help.

Thank you Kuzeycem

 

[tom tams]

E. s. reiseri	Hartert, EJO, 1904	se Albania, nw Greece, Macedonia and w, c Turkey
E. s. caspia	Ménétriés, 1832	e Turkey, the Caucasus and n Iran

Thank you Brian

 

[tom tams]

A very tough call Tom and in truth I don't know the answer. According to 'Handbook West Palearctic Birds' map reiseri is the default ssp. wintering across much of Turkey. Assessment of precise bill structure is made difficult when the head is turning away and slightly down, as in this instance, but I'd suggest the curvature of the culmen is not nearly as marked if you compare with ML204234931 - Reed Bunting - Macaulay Library However, this is just one example and there is likely range of variation in all taxa.

Grahame

Edit Here's a presumed (juvenile) reiseri from W Turkey ML600955311 - Reed Bunting - Macaulay Library note similarity of bill to caspia from Van above. Seems that subtle average differences exist in plumage, notably, reiseri is generally darker, more boldly streaked with grey collar/upper mantle, scapulars and rump.

Suggest @kuzeycem is better placed to comment.

Thanks again Grahame

 

[Butty]

No problem 👍🏼