Request advice id Eurasian or African Collared Collared Dove Sharm, Egypt December 2023 (1 Viewer)

[Earnest lad]

Please may I request advice.
I had a good few Eurasian CD's on my recent trip but was on the lookout for a possible lifer in the form of African CD. I photographed any Collared Doves I saw.
Whilst I am not very hopeful, I would be grateful for any comments.
The bird shown here (3 pics) is the only one gives rise to any measure of hope. The vent seems pale and the black on the undertail seems to potentially be a fit but I see the black collar being restricted seems a better fit for Eurasian. Thank you once again.

 

[Butty]

Given the variability in Eurasian collared dove and/or the influence of domestic genes, I seriously wonder if African collared dove is identifiable by sight outside its normal range. Personally, I wouldn't bother.

 

[THE_FERN]

Given the variability in Eurasian collared dove and/or the influence of domestic genes, I seriously wonder if African collared dove is identifiable by sight outside its normal range. Personally, I wouldn't bother.

This is fair comment but perhaps unduly pessimistic. I'd want to adjust colours to persuade myself the vent really is whitish and not grey, but take hope from the tail feather black pattern. I'm not convinced we can judge the collar well here.

What is the status at Sharm? Not seeing ebird records...

 

[KenM]

Think I’d settle for a Collared Dove..”seen in Africa” on this one.
PS, keep up the good work with ye’r close up images Earnest Lad, does wonders for the visually impaired amongst us and a HNY👍

 

[Earnest lad]

Given the variability in Eurasian collared dove and/or the influence of domestic genes, I seriously wonder if African collared dove is identifiable by sight outside its normal range. Personally, I wouldn't bother.

Thank you for this comment. I have checked and yes, the African Collared Dove IS out of range here. (Birdsoftheworld.org). I saw the species reported on some trip reports though. I guess in the circumstances a clinched sighting cannot be claimed due to domestic genes influence.

 

[Earnest lad]

This is fair comment but perhaps unduly pessimistic. I'd want to adjust colours to persuade myself the vent really is whitish and not grey, but take hope from the tail feather black pattern. I'm not convinced we can judge the collar well here.

What is the status at Sharm? Not seeing ebird records...

Thank you for your kind input. I have lightened up one of the images and it does seem to indicate a whitish vent. I think in the circumstances, a "possible" is definitely indicated. Not conclusive though

 

[Earnest lad]

Think I’d settle for a Collared Dove..”seen in Africa” on this one.
PS, keep up the good work with ye’r close up images Earnest Lad, does wonders for the visually impaired amongst us and a HNY👍

Thank you for your kind greetings . Best wishes to everyone. I think the conclusion you recommend is an entirely reasonable one, which I have decided to adhere to. I agree about cropped images. When the purpose is ID rather than an aesthetic purpose, I imagine close cropping is usually going to be the best option for the visually impaired AND everyone else too!

 

[01101001]

There's also this blog post that may add something useful:

A new and reliable field mark to distinguish African and Eurasian Collared Dove?

Last autumn I went for a vacation to the beautiful island of Tenerife, together with my non-birding girlfriend. Birding was not a primary...

thelittlestint.blogspot.com

 

[Earnest lad]

There's also this blog post that may add something useful:

A new and reliable field mark to distinguish African and Eurasian Collared Dove?

Last autumn I went for a vacation to the beautiful island of Tenerife, together with my non-birding girlfriend. Birding was not a primary...

thelittlestint.blogspot.com

Thank you. I have seen that one. The outer part of the undertail shows extended black on the Eurasian. I thought that didnt seem to be present on the bird in question.

 

[njlarsen]

I think you need a view more truly from the underside to judge the color of the (narrow) outer vane of the outer tail feather.
Niels

 

[THE_FERN]

But I think we can see how far the black extends in the original pics 5,6. It seems good for African...

 

[Earnest lad]

I think you need a view more truly from the underside to judge the color of the (narrow) outer vane of the outer tail feather.
Niels

Good point - thank you.

 

[Earnest lad]

But I think we can see how far the black extends in the original pics 5,6. It seems good for African...

Thank you. Would you say it is conclusive enough to be a "lifer" please?

 

[THE_FERN]

Thank you. Would you say it is conclusive enough to be a "lifer" please?

That has to be your decision. I'd draw upon my memory of the bird to be sure what we see in the image is representative

 

[Earnest lad]

That has to be your decision. I'd draw upon my memory of the bird to be sure what we see in the image is representative

I appreciate that point. To be honest I was taking photos all over the place and it was a fast fly - by. I am also uncertain of ACD status in that area. So far I have it down on my list as a "possible".

 

[Butty]

Pic 1 clearly appears to show a fine dark edge to the tail extending halfway along the visible tail and much further than the blackish base. This would suggest the bird was (on that feature) Eurasian collared dove. I consider the photo too poor (no offence) to show whether that dark edge was really present or not. Pics 2-3 are at the wrong angle to show anything.
As Fern indicates, what goes onto your list is no-one's concern but yours - but (since you seem interested in people's views), on the criterion above, there's no way that that view of that bird would have got African collared dove onto mine.

 

[THE_FERN]

Pic 1 clearly appears to show a fine dark edge to the tail extending halfway along the visible tail and much further than the blackish base.

As usual our interpretations of the same image differ. For me, the "black edge" really isn't---at least in comparison with what you'd see on a European dove. It's basically the same colour as the rest of the tail.

We might also point to the non-contrasting darker primaries too---although I'm not convinced this is a very good character especially in very hot places where there's feather bleach

African's not been seen there but has been "fairly" near. Given how difficult these 2 are i wouldn't be surprised if it's overlooked.

Ultimately up to the op...

 

[Earnest lad]

Pic 1 clearly appears to show a fine dark edge to the tail extending halfway along the visible tail and much further than the blackish base. This would suggest the bird was (on that feature) Eurasian collared dove. I consider the photo too poor (no offence) to show whether that dark edge was really present or not. Pics 2-3 are at the wrong angle to show anything.
As Fern indicates, what goes onto your list is no-one's concern but yours - but (since you seem interested in people's views), on the criterion above, there's no way that that view of that bird would have got African collared dove onto mine.

Thank you so much. Two heads are better than one. I am refraining from putting it on my list. I see now the dark edge referred to in pic 1. I hadn't noticed it previously.

 

[Earnest lad]

As usual our interpretations of the same image differ. For me, the "black edge" really isn't---at least in comparison with what you'd see on a European dove. It's basically the same colour as the rest of the tail.

We might also point to the non-contrasting darker primaries too---although I'm not convinced this is a very good character especially in very hot places where there's feather bleach

African's not been seen there but has been "fairly" near. Given how difficult these 2 are i wouldn't be surprised if it's overlooked.

Ultimately up to the op...

Thank you again. I am going to try and find out if the species is known as an inhabitant of that area (even though the range maps in books etc show it to be out of range here. One trip report I read mentioned multiple sightings.

 

[Earnest lad]

If I may take the liberty of providing some pics of another "collared dove type" sighting - this time in Botanical Gardens, Sharm El -Sheikh.
I have been reliably informed that African Collared Dove does in fact occur in Sharm El Sheikh.
I see in the pics here the vent is very pale. I am wondering whether Eurasian Collared Dove EVER has such a pale vent as this one and the other one too.