Shocking Amur Falcon Massacre in Nagaland, India (3 Viewers)

[lashinala]

Maybe ask binocular-laden birdwatching 'tourists' in Malta? Are they wasting their time?

 

[Nightranger]

Apples and oranges. "Industry" is (presumably) doing something useful, not jetting around the world on holiday. Your arguement is that since someone else is consuming more fuel for something, your own waste is irrelevant? Everyone can play that game.

Is that the same industry that pours tons of chemicals into the atmosphere or have you some flowery notion that the CO2 figures are wrong? Sorry Brooks, you picked the wrong target - I have had just one holiday in a 50+ year lifetime that involved air travel (6 hours round trip time in a Boeing 737-300 to Corfu), apart from that it has been just two trips to Jersey (2.25 hours approx in a BAe ATP the first time and around 2 hours in a BAe 146 the second time). I assume you are now going to tell us all how many times you have been to the 'mainland', by what method and the flight times (assuming you did not sail, which I doubt).

Note on edit: I love this picture http://www.pbase.com/bkrownd/image/93596112 My mum has two shi tzus (stop sniggering at the back) and I was interested to have a look at your site so it gives me no great joy to be debating with you in this manner. I am sure your motives are heartfelt but we all (yes, me too...no, really...LOL) have had our views challenged on BF and it is what keeps this forum interesting.

 

[Nightranger]

Most of the money spent on tourism goes to transportation companies, hotels, etc and the industries that support them. Why not put 100% of that money towards actual conservation work and community improvement, instead of the tiny fraction that ever trickles down to it though tourism? The money wasted on air fares and fuel etc could instead go directly towards local conservation jobs and investment and building stable local economies. Instead you're giving the lion's share to airlines, oil companies, etc.

Brooks, this is a common misconception that even conservation organisations like the RSPB do not represent accurately. The first part of your statement is absolutely correct but why would anyone found a business on not making some money? Richard Branson is one of the most outrageous philanthropists there is but he does not have businesses that solely channel money back to good causes. There are staff to pay and that includes the founder of the company (we all have to eat and pay the bills...believe me you cannot work for nothing...I have tried). The truth is (as has been mentioned by others on this thread) that a lot of these companies (sadly, not all) put money back into the local economy that simply would not exist without the tourism. In other words, put 100% of the money back into conservation projects as an alternative (arguably, charities are already supposed to be doing this but even they have to pay staff) instead of going on a trip and what does the individual donor get out of it??? Is that realistic?

Note on second edit: please do not forget the airline industry, oil company people have to eat too but therein lies a tale because the oil industry is right in there with the 90% Co2 emissions and whilst I would not want to exclude BP, Shell and Airbus Industries/EADS it is important to realise that Boeing, EXXON and others have interests not only in our own economic zones but well beyond. Eco-tourism is just a small part of the bigger picture and I would (without wishing to sound overly confrontational) urge you to check out business aviation figures if you can find them. They are wrapped up deeply inside what we call General Aviation (sorry guv, I didn't realise me old Cessna was burning as much fuel as the CEO's Gulfstream V).

 

[Nbiser]

Balance between the needs of people and animals:

Shocking indeed. Remember, though, that it's likely that those involved are probably desperately poor and the modest income that they derive from this trade may well be disproportionately important to them. However, given that rather few people appear to make a profit from this 'harvest' I wonder if the long term answer might be well organised and targetted eco-tourism which could bring in more money than the short-sighted hunting.

I think that you are right, as far as that they are poor and need the money; we all should remember that they are only animals, human needs come first; a human life is more important than the life of billions of birds. But don't get me wrong, I think that conservation is very, very, very, important. Not only for the sake of the animals, it helps people too. We need to have a good balance between the needs of these two classes. I think that tourism is a good solution to the problem.

 

[Trystan]

we all should remember that they are only animals, human needs come first; a human life is more important than the life of billions of birds.

We are only animals too, and we are supposed to be able to think.

When we are endangered I might worry about the value of human life but as long as there are 7 billion people on the planet carrying out these kinds of atrocities I'd say the wildlife comes first.

 

[Nightranger]

a human life is more important than the life of billions of birds.

It is to the individual but there is a massive assumption in this statement and it is a common misconception. As the human race goes we are often guilty of judging a species merit by its direct benefit to us, ie, how useful (or harmful) it is to our lives. However, there are an almost unlimited number of examples of how some species have an indirect effect on our lives. For example, the Amur falcon is a major predator and I would not be surprised if somewhere within its range, it is a control factor on small birds that would otherwise be seen as crop pests.

 

[Nbiser]

Humans aren't animals:

We are only animals too, and we are supposed to be able to think.

When we are endangered I might worry about the value of human life but as long as there are 7 billion people on the planet carrying out these kinds of atrocities I'd say the wildlife comes first.

People are created in the image of God. We have souls that will last for eternity, either in heaven or hell. Nature itself proves that we are made in the image of God because we are capable of rational thought, birds and other animals aren't, they do things through instinct. They operate on instinct while we think our way through matters. As a Christian I believe that one human soul is more important than the lives of billions of birds because we will live into eternity and will either be in the torments of hell or the joys of heaven, they won't.

 

[Jos Stratford]

People are created in the image of God. We have souls that will last for eternity, either in heaven or hell. Nature itself proves that we are made in the image of God because we are capable of rational thought, birds and other animals aren't. They operate on instinct while we think our way through matters. As a Christian I believe that one human soul is more important than the lives of billions of birds because we will live into eternity and will either be in the torments of hell or the joys of heaven, they won't.

All of us are entitled to belief, and I can respect you for yours. However, I personally think there is nothing particularly special or spiritual about humans that automatically places them in a special category. If the discussion is widened to endangered species such as the Rhino, etc, etc, then I simply do not accept that one human life is of more value than one rhino life. If a human (one of six billion) chooses to take his chances as a poacher of a species numbering a few thousand in the world, then I fully support the shoot-to-kill policy that is sometimes adopted as a last resort.

PS a bit more flippant, but if the birds and beasts don't make it into eternity, then I surely hope I don't, regardless of whether it is the so-called torments of down or joys of up.

 

[angusmcoatup]

People are created in the image of God. We have souls that will last for eternity, either in heaven or hell. Nature itself proves that we are made in the image of God because we are capable of rational thought, birds and other animals aren't. They operate on instinct while we think our way through matters. As a Christian I believe that one human soul is more important than the lives of billions of birds because we will live into eternity and will either be in the torments of hell or the joys of heaven, they won't.

Hello again Nbiser.

Our posts are undoubtedly going to wiped by the all-mighty mods but here goes anyway.

Have a go at seeing the world without referring to the artificial crutches of God , Heaven and Hell. You'll probably come up with the conclusion its doomed. Thats because human beings made rational decisions which has set in motion a chain of events that ultimately is going to result in a very poor place to live in . My version of hell I suppose.

Having faith in God is fine in my book, using it as a way of blinkering yourself to the cruel realities of the world, in which you could possibly have a small part in redressing, is inexcusable.

Magnificently off thread but as I said , we'll be wiped before the day is out.

Can't believe you've mentioned cats and religion within two posts by the way. You'll be a Birdforum legend before long.

 

[Robert L Jarvis]

Maybe ask binocular-laden birdwatching 'tourists' in Malta? Are they wasting their time?

I would not set foot in Malta so that is 2 tourists less. (inc Wife)

 

[Jos Stratford]

Can't believe you've mentioned cats and religion within two posts by the way. You'll be a Birdforum legend before long.

3

 

[Robert L Jarvis]

AS for the slaughter, words fail me, I just find it difficult to comprehend. What are these people going to do when there are nomore birds to kill and this applies to Malta, Cyprus as wellas a few other places.

As for the tourism contribution I am with Jos on this. These out of the way places and countries need tourism, make no mistake.

 

[Bananafishbones]

Killing birds for food (garnishing headresses etc) has always gone on, but in the twenty first century their really is no reason for barbarrick acts like this. Even in tropical forests of Papua New guinea the local people understand the balance of conservation and have understood if for 100s of years.

In an apparantly more western idealist country such as India sustainable food should be easy to manage - Farm wildfowl, handle it properly, Kill it properly, sustain levels of turnover through proper managment .... how f'cking hard can this be, as I said previously these people are uncivilised B@stards.

 

[JoeRawles]

I read about this only yesterday on a local birder's blog - absolutely shocking to think this is still going on/ allowed to happen. Hopefully more action will be taken to prevent further massacres like this in the future.

 

[Nightranger]

People are created in the image of God. We have souls that will last for eternity, either in heaven or hell. Nature itself proves that we are made in the image of God because we are capable of rational thought, birds and other animals aren't. They operate on instinct while we think our way through matters. As a Christian I believe that one human soul is more important than the lives of billions of birds because we will live into eternity and will either be in the torments of hell or the joys of heaven, they won't.

I would like to echo what other people have said about respecting your views but please have a think about my previous reply so that we can bring things back on-topic. I guessed you were commenting from strong religious beliefs and that is why I answered your original post in such a particular way. I am with Jos Stafford on not believing that humans are set apart from the rest of the animals and if you cross-apply the logic over your point about eternal souls, you also have to accept that animals also have souls. All higher animals (a phrase I detest, BTW) show conscious thought in reaction to stimuli that go way beyond simple instinct and they can change or adapt behaviour. Biologcially speaking, it is impossible to define humans and human nature distinctly and therefore, logically the distinction does not work even from a spiritual standpoint. Nevertheless, this is largely irrelevant to this thread because the key is understanding that we cannot have a mass slaughter on this kind of scale without potentially or actually effecting some other area of our lives. To paraphrase an ex-colleague the extinction of no single species would or could ever enrich the lives of humans but the loss of some species will lessen the quality of our lives.

 

[Nightranger]

Our posts are undoubtedly going to wiped by the all-mighty mods but here goes anyway.

I see what you did there!

 

[Chosun Juan]

.....we all should remember that they are only animals, human needs come first; a human life is more important than the life of billions of birds.....

What!

Humans that cannot 'love' other, supposedly less 'sentinent' beings, have no chance of ever loving their fellow man, and this 'one' limited, finite world which we all 'share'.

Humans, as a species capable of rational thought, consistently demonstrate a lack of 'love', and outright rampant greed - thinking that there is some sort of god-given right to exceed the resource base at the unfortunate expense of other living things.

The same light that is in all living things, is the same light that is in humans, is the same light that is ........

Dismissal, and failure to recognise this, is ...... well, it certainly ain't heaven ...... Sacrifice doesn't just begin and end with crosses .......

Somewhere, in a galaxy far, far away, on a spaceship, there is a conversation taking place which goes something like:-
"we all should remember that they are only humans, alien needs come first; an alien life is more important than the life of billions of humans"........


Chosun :gh:

 

[Jimmybirder]

People are created in the image of God. We have souls that will last for eternity, either in heaven or hell. Nature itself proves that we are made in the image of God because we are capable of rational thought, birds and other animals aren't, they do things through instinct. They operate on instinct while we think our way through matters. As a Christian I believe that one human soul is more important than the lives of billions of birds because we will live into eternity and will either be in the torments of hell or the joys of heaven, they won't.

Have you any evidence for this??|^|

 

[FXM]

People are created in the image of God. We have souls that will last for eternity, either in heaven or hell. Nature itself proves that we are made in the image of God because we are capable of rational thought, birds and other animals aren't, they do things through instinct. They operate on instinct while we think our way through matters. As a Christian I believe that one human soul is more important than the lives of billions of birds because we will live into eternity and will either be in the torments of hell or the joys of heaven, they won't.

Are you being serious?

 

[rockfowl]

Are you being serious?

Surely not Frank!