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Some digiscoping experiments with a dslr (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Paul Corfield
- Start date
Paul Corfield
Well-known member
Yes, you are correct with the magnifications you showed. Roughly 9X for the 300mm lens and 18X with a teleconverter.
The Olympus has a smaller sensor, hence the slightly higher crop factor.
If you are looking to digiscope with a digital slr then good performance at high ISO settings is a must. Look for one with very low noise and good detail at least up to ISO1600. That would let you use the camera on the scope in most conditions like sunny or very dull days and still allow a fast shutter speed.
The Nikon mount you mentioned is a standard mount for the new lenses where the auto focus motor is built into the lens but if you want to use older lenses then you will have to manually focus them etc.
Around 6m to 10m pixels is optimal for for the lower end dslr's with the smaller sensors. Cramming more pixels onto the same size sensor doesn't always result in more detail. Noise levels vary with different makes so the reviews should highlight how well they handle noise.
Trinie - thanks for the comment. My moon photo was taken with two tripods using mirror lock up, shutter release etc. That keeps everything rock solid. Took it on ISO200 to keep all the detail. It's also 5 photos stacked in Registax which helps too.
Paul.
The Olympus has a smaller sensor, hence the slightly higher crop factor.
If you are looking to digiscope with a digital slr then good performance at high ISO settings is a must. Look for one with very low noise and good detail at least up to ISO1600. That would let you use the camera on the scope in most conditions like sunny or very dull days and still allow a fast shutter speed.
The Nikon mount you mentioned is a standard mount for the new lenses where the auto focus motor is built into the lens but if you want to use older lenses then you will have to manually focus them etc.
Around 6m to 10m pixels is optimal for for the lower end dslr's with the smaller sensors. Cramming more pixels onto the same size sensor doesn't always result in more detail. Noise levels vary with different makes so the reviews should highlight how well they handle noise.
Trinie - thanks for the comment. My moon photo was taken with two tripods using mirror lock up, shutter release etc. That keeps everything rock solid. Took it on ISO200 to keep all the detail. It's also 5 photos stacked in Registax which helps too.
Paul.
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JGobeil
Nature Photographer
More experiments with my setup
Following Paul's suggestions, I experimented with extenders between the camera and lens. They indeed increase magnification and the penalty in terms of light is not too severe. I think it is a cheap way to increase reach - thanks for a great tip Paul.
Attached are 3 photos:
1- 20D, 50mm EF lens, 21mm Hyperion eyepiece and PF-80ED scope setup as described in a previous post.
2- Same setup with 12mm extension tube added between camera and lens.
3- Same setup with 12 and 20mm tubes added for a total of 32mm.
Pics have not been cropped so they can be compared in terms of magnification. Very dull light - bright overcast, on snow. Accurate focusing was quite difficult. Remote shutter cable used. Distance about 20-25 meters.
I still don't understand why I cannot get the metering to work properly. Why is it that it works well with a Nikon P5100 and does not work with a 20D + 50mm lens ? Both cameras are looking at the same image.
Following Paul's suggestions, I experimented with extenders between the camera and lens. They indeed increase magnification and the penalty in terms of light is not too severe. I think it is a cheap way to increase reach - thanks for a great tip Paul.
Attached are 3 photos:
1- 20D, 50mm EF lens, 21mm Hyperion eyepiece and PF-80ED scope setup as described in a previous post.
2- Same setup with 12mm extension tube added between camera and lens.
3- Same setup with 12 and 20mm tubes added for a total of 32mm.
Pics have not been cropped so they can be compared in terms of magnification. Very dull light - bright overcast, on snow. Accurate focusing was quite difficult. Remote shutter cable used. Distance about 20-25 meters.
I still don't understand why I cannot get the metering to work properly. Why is it that it works well with a Nikon P5100 and does not work with a 20D + 50mm lens ? Both cameras are looking at the same image.
mmdnje
Jose
hI JULES. I'm now using a canon 350D for digiscoping with the pentax. I have decided to use a 28mm lens instead of the 50mm. FWIW, metering is allways in issue. I usually underexpose by ~2/3 and check histogram after the first picture. I shoot in Av mode. I use the center weighted average (I think this is the name) unless the bird occupies most of the viewfinder. I have also cranke dup the contrast and sharpness in camera. Some of the pictures with this settings are in my gallery. Jose
dahyon
Well-known member
In response to Jules's question why is there a difference between the metering of the P5100 and the Canon 20D when using a pentax 80X21mm Baader eyepiece:
The answer is that the exit pupil of the scope is the same for both but this light cone then has to cover quite different sizes of ccd. I have attached a spreadsheet (G.Raiche - www.digibird.com)) and linked a scaled diagram showing this difference in size. In this example with both lens at f5.6 and ~35mm equivalent effective focal length, the Dslr camera aperture is ~3 times larger than the exit pupil of the scope resulting in Canon 20D=f#14.9 compared to the p5100=f#5.6
Cheers, Dave
The answer is that the exit pupil of the scope is the same for both but this light cone then has to cover quite different sizes of ccd. I have attached a spreadsheet (G.Raiche - www.digibird.com)) and linked a scaled diagram showing this difference in size. In this example with both lens at f5.6 and ~35mm equivalent effective focal length, the Dslr camera aperture is ~3 times larger than the exit pupil of the scope resulting in Canon 20D=f#14.9 compared to the p5100=f#5.6
Cheers, Dave
Attachments
Paul Corfield
Well-known member
Good work with the extension tubes Jules, looks like it worked a treat.
Paul.
Paul.
JGobeil
Nature Photographer
Thanks for the info Dave. Yes, this is rather tricky and I find it difficult to understand.
"The effective aperture of the camera can be no larger than the exit pupil of the telescope. This quantity is determined by the aperture and magnification of the scope. If the exit pupil is very small compared to the aperture of the shutter, then exposure brightness and depth of field is determined by the telescope, not the camera. However, if the exit pupil is large compared to the range of shutter diameters, the camera controls do indeed influence exposure and depth of field." (from digibird.com).
Well, I guess that full manual will be the way to go from now on...
Regards
Jules
JGobeil
Nature Photographer
Thanks Paul. Yes the tubes seem to do a great job. More experimentation is needed but so far so good...
Next time, I'll try the Pentax XW20 eyepiece instead of the Hyperion 21mm. A better eyepiece should help.
Spring is around the corner but it is still very cold here in Quebec. -24 C. is expected for tomorrow morning... Not very handy for digiscoping !
Regards
Jules
Right guys,
Could one of you please post images taken with:-
standard lens ( say 18-50mm )
extended lens ( say 50 - 200mm )
also same again with teleconverter
same again with extension tubes
I would like to see the comparison on a single subject so i can get the jist of what i am likely to get say i was buying a olympus or nikon dslr camera.
I will stick my hands up i am a newbie, about to give up my point and shoot compact in favour for a DSLR but i need to know what i am letting myself in for. I have narrowed it down to a few selections
Nikon Click here to view
Olympus Click here to view
Canon click here to view
PEntax Click here to view
Please Please help as i am going to buy one this weekend or next week.
thanks
Could one of you please post images taken with:-
standard lens ( say 18-50mm )
extended lens ( say 50 - 200mm )
also same again with teleconverter
same again with extension tubes
I would like to see the comparison on a single subject so i can get the jist of what i am likely to get say i was buying a olympus or nikon dslr camera.
I will stick my hands up i am a newbie, about to give up my point and shoot compact in favour for a DSLR but i need to know what i am letting myself in for. I have narrowed it down to a few selections
Nikon Click here to view
Olympus Click here to view
Canon click here to view
PEntax Click here to view
Please Please help as i am going to buy one this weekend or next week.
thanks
Paul Corfield
Well-known member
Not sure what you want to gain by seeing images from either of those lenses. Neither of them would be of much use for birding unless you were sat in a hide and waited for the birds to come within a few metres. 300mm - 500mm is where you need to be and even that wont give you the reach of digiscoping. You really need to be posting in the Cameras and Photography section to get a better idea on lenses and cameras but a site like http://www.dpreview.com/ will give you the good and bad points of the cameras you listed.
I use my DSLR purely for digiscoping and I hardly ever have a conventional lens on it. Teleconverters don't work all that well with conventional lenses unless you get a really good one or a lens with a matched multiplier. A bigger lens, even a cheap one will produce sharper images than an equivalent lens/teleconverter combination. Teleconverters work well for digiscoping through telescopes though. Extension tubes are used for macro close up photography but they also work with digiscoping to magnify the image. They wont magnify a conventional lens as all they do is greatly reduce how far the lens will focus.
Regarding the cameras, personally I like Pentax. Samsung and Pentax work together and my Samsung is a direct clone of an earlier Pentax model. You could also consider the Samsung GX-10 (10 mega pixel with image stabilization) which is a clone of the Pentax K10D. The Samsung takes all Pentax lenses, past and present. My dad has the Canon 400D, it's ok but the kit lens was way softer than my Samsung when we did a comparison of the same subject matter. Don't know much about the Nikon or Olympus but I know the Olympus has a small viewfinder that's supposed to be hard to see detail while focusing. If it was me I'd probably go for the 10 mega pixels rather than 6.
Paul.
Thanks for that paul,
I will tell you what i have and perhaps you could recommend the best way to go.
I currently have an Acuter 20 - 60X 80mm scope, i know is a low end scope but i only took birding back up a few years ago, give it another couple and i will probably invest in a better model, Kowa or Leist or similiar.
I can get the eyepiece for the DSLR camera to fit onto this scope, what else would i need to obtain half decent images via digiscoping with a dslr ?
What i want to do is to be able to take pictures of birds and have then sitting proud in my collection, not like some of the ones i have had with my coolpix 885 camera, for every one good one i have 900 bad ones !!, i want this to improve.
Cheers for your help and advice, i am listening mate.
i await your reply.
I will tell you what i have and perhaps you could recommend the best way to go.
I currently have an Acuter 20 - 60X 80mm scope, i know is a low end scope but i only took birding back up a few years ago, give it another couple and i will probably invest in a better model, Kowa or Leist or similiar.
I can get the eyepiece for the DSLR camera to fit onto this scope, what else would i need to obtain half decent images via digiscoping with a dslr ?
What i want to do is to be able to take pictures of birds and have then sitting proud in my collection, not like some of the ones i have had with my coolpix 885 camera, for every one good one i have 900 bad ones !!, i want this to improve.
Cheers for your help and advice, i am listening mate.
i await your reply.
JGobeil
Nature Photographer
You are in for a major disapointment... It is not the camera that makes the pictures but the photographer. If you are under the impression that choosing the right equipment will assure great photos - your are VERY wrong. You must make your classes before and learn how to use whatever you have in terms of equipment.
It is a good idea to read about equipment, question other photographers and try some cameras if possible. Getting the right equipment is important as it will definitely make life easier for you and eventually allow you to take some great pictures but it alone won't make you a great photographer.
But, even with the BEST equipement (if there is such a thing...) your ratio when you start using it will be 1:900 unfortunately. Then it will improve to 2:900 and maybe eventually to 9:900. If you become good enough to have a REAL keeper for each 100 photos, you will be among the best photographers.
What is nice with digital photography is that photos cost NOTHING. Learn to use whatever equipment you have and work your way up. There is no free lunch in photography. Slowly improve your equipment, one piece at a time if possible and learn to use it. Read a lot, try, experiment and shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot. That's the proven way to do it.
As I see it, there are 4 areas you will need to work on to eventually become great bird (or any wildlife) photographer:
1. Devote a lot of time to it
2. Understand and respect bird behavior
3. Master your equipment
4. Become proficient in post-processing (Photoshop and the like)
If you work hard enough at these, you will improve big time and you will become quite good like most of us. Become a great photographer ? Maybe yes, maybe no... I know that I am not there... yet, but tomorrow is another day, who knows !
Paul Corfield
Well-known member
I've had some real bargain basement spotting scopes in the past. With all of them I took the eyepiece off and put one of my own expensive ones on and that was all that was needed to make an inferior scope into a really nice digiscoping one. The camera side of things is quite easy. Whatever camera you get you will need a good 28mm, 35mm, 40mm or 50mm lens. On ebay you can pick up the older manual lenses really cheap and some of them produce really sharp photos. A little research is all that's needed once you get the camera. Also when you get the camera try out the kit lens that comes with it and test it through your scopes eyepiece. Just hand hold it and take some photos through the eyepiece at various zoom settings that match the lenses I listed above. Try it in sunny and cloudy conditions and see how much light is getting through your scope/eyepiece to the camera. Ideally you want to aiming for 1/400 or more on a sunny day and around 1/100 on a cloudy day. If it's wet and raining I may go down to 1/60. With a 28mm lens you should get fast speeds in any weather but the magnification with a 28mm lens will be roughly half that of a 50mm lens. The trade off is the bigger the lens then the less light gets through it. The lenses are so cheap on ebay though that you could easily get a 28mm and a 50mm. Get a cheap 2X teleconverter too but makes sure it's a 7 element model, they usually say MC7 or something like that. If it's an MC4 then it's an inferior 4 element design and will not produce sharp images. My 28mm lens with a good MC7 teleconverter produces sharper photos than my 50mm F1.4 lens when used with the scope. These are just some things you can try. Also get some extensions tubes which are again, cheap on ebay.
Then there's what Jules said above. The equipment is only half the battle. I still chuck loads of photos away. This week I've got through hundreds. A lot of them were good by many peoples standards but when you take a really good one then that becomes a sort of self imposed benchmark. I've only saved around 5 photos this week to keep and 3 of them were of the same bird. 2 images was spot on, pin sharp, lighting was good etc. Any that fall below that I just chuck away because I know what I'm capable of so like Jules said, it's the photographer, not the equipment. The only time that may not be the case is if yor equipment isn't capable of a good photo no matter what. Going from your Coolpix to a DSLR will present a bit of a learning curve. Try and use the DSLR in manual mode from day one as that's what you will need to use it on for digiscoping. In the end shutter speeds will be second nature whatever the weather. Good luck.
Paul.
Jules & Paul,
Jules / I appreciate what you are saying and i do understand, however what you and paul would call no good shoots, probably to me they are good shoots if you know what i mean.
I understand experience makes up for a lot, i am a software developer and when i look back at code i done several years ago i laugh at it as it is so poorly structure, written and algorithmed. So point taken.
Paul / I applaud your last post, it is very informative.
I have some further questions and please forgive me for my niavity. You say "took the eyepiece off and put one of my own expensive ones on" does this mean that the threads are a standard size on the eye pieces between manufacturers ?
Secondly the attachemnt for my scope to DSLR is a t-mount, how does this connect to the scope / camera ? does it go over the lens of camera and scope ?
Once again apologies for the niavity and perhaps the humerous questions, but i am a firm believer in learning from the wise.
Is it possible to speak to you on the phone ?
cheers
Jules / I appreciate what you are saying and i do understand, however what you and paul would call no good shoots, probably to me they are good shoots if you know what i mean.
I understand experience makes up for a lot, i am a software developer and when i look back at code i done several years ago i laugh at it as it is so poorly structure, written and algorithmed. So point taken.
Paul / I applaud your last post, it is very informative.
I have some further questions and please forgive me for my niavity. You say "took the eyepiece off and put one of my own expensive ones on" does this mean that the threads are a standard size on the eye pieces between manufacturers ?
Secondly the attachemnt for my scope to DSLR is a t-mount, how does this connect to the scope / camera ? does it go over the lens of camera and scope ?
Once again apologies for the niavity and perhaps the humerous questions, but i am a firm believer in learning from the wise.
Is it possible to speak to you on the phone ?
cheers
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Paul Corfield
Well-known member
If you are using a t-mount as the method to attach your future camera to the scope then the way this works will be something like this -
The Acuter slr adapter will join the camera to the eyepiece and for this there will be no lens on the camera. This method is called eyepiece projection. This means that the image comes through the eyepiece and projects onto the camera ccd. I presume if you take the rubber eyecup off your scopes eyepiece there will be some sort of fitting/thread that allows the Acuter adapter to secure to. then depending on the camera you get you will need to buy an extra t-ring for that particular camera bayonet lens fitting. This will mount the camera to the end of the Acuter adapter. From what little info I could find on the web they recommend using the Acuter 19mm eyepiece with the t-adapter. Not sure if you can use this eyepiece on your scope as it seems to be for the Acuter Pro series, depends on what you have. If you are stuck with the zoom eyepiece then it may be the time to think about a different scope as eyepiece projection needs pretty good optics to work well, ideally it needs specialized flat field eyepieces otherwise you end up with a lot of distortion away from the centre of the image. Of all eyepieces, zoom eyepieces tend to be the worst as they have to have a lot of glass in them to cover all the zoom ranges. More glass means less quality unless it's made to the highest standards. Even with the dslr you could still be no better off than with the Coolpix in terms of image quality an that is very likely as there doesn't seem to be another way of mounting a dslr to the Acuter scope. Even with my expensive astro eyepieces the eyepiece projection method produces the poorest images in terms of quality which is why I say that. The only positives with eyepiece projection are that it produces massive amounts of magnification but image quality is what you want more than anything.
The threads or attachments for eyepieces change from nearly every manufacture of spotting scope. I used to change mine for astronomy type eyepieces as astro eyepieces are all standard fittings no matter what astro style scope you have. This meant having to make or cobble together some sort of adapter to join my astro eyepieces to the spotting scope. If you can achieve that it means you have a very wide choice of eyepieces and with astro eyepieces even the cheap ones are generally better than what's on a spotting scope. I used to be an aerospace engineer for 13 years before becoming a full time artist so I'm always taking stuff apart to see how it works. Personally I have a Baader Hyperion 17mm (around £80) and a William Optics DCL-28 (also around £80). Both are threaded at the viewing end which allows them to screw onto the camera lens via various stepping rings. Optically the Baader ones are better, have a wider field of view etc.
Paul.
The Acuter slr adapter will join the camera to the eyepiece and for this there will be no lens on the camera. This method is called eyepiece projection. This means that the image comes through the eyepiece and projects onto the camera ccd. I presume if you take the rubber eyecup off your scopes eyepiece there will be some sort of fitting/thread that allows the Acuter adapter to secure to. then depending on the camera you get you will need to buy an extra t-ring for that particular camera bayonet lens fitting. This will mount the camera to the end of the Acuter adapter. From what little info I could find on the web they recommend using the Acuter 19mm eyepiece with the t-adapter. Not sure if you can use this eyepiece on your scope as it seems to be for the Acuter Pro series, depends on what you have. If you are stuck with the zoom eyepiece then it may be the time to think about a different scope as eyepiece projection needs pretty good optics to work well, ideally it needs specialized flat field eyepieces otherwise you end up with a lot of distortion away from the centre of the image. Of all eyepieces, zoom eyepieces tend to be the worst as they have to have a lot of glass in them to cover all the zoom ranges. More glass means less quality unless it's made to the highest standards. Even with the dslr you could still be no better off than with the Coolpix in terms of image quality an that is very likely as there doesn't seem to be another way of mounting a dslr to the Acuter scope. Even with my expensive astro eyepieces the eyepiece projection method produces the poorest images in terms of quality which is why I say that. The only positives with eyepiece projection are that it produces massive amounts of magnification but image quality is what you want more than anything.
The threads or attachments for eyepieces change from nearly every manufacture of spotting scope. I used to change mine for astronomy type eyepieces as astro eyepieces are all standard fittings no matter what astro style scope you have. This meant having to make or cobble together some sort of adapter to join my astro eyepieces to the spotting scope. If you can achieve that it means you have a very wide choice of eyepieces and with astro eyepieces even the cheap ones are generally better than what's on a spotting scope. I used to be an aerospace engineer for 13 years before becoming a full time artist so I'm always taking stuff apart to see how it works. Personally I have a Baader Hyperion 17mm (around £80) and a William Optics DCL-28 (also around £80). Both are threaded at the viewing end which allows them to screw onto the camera lens via various stepping rings. Optically the Baader ones are better, have a wider field of view etc.
Paul.
Paul,
Is this what you mean by at Hyperion:-
HYPERION Wide Angle Zoom Eyepiece 8-24mm - 1.25" its down near the bottom of the web page, says it directly fits an acuter / skywatch scope.
check your PM, i have sent you my contact details, i would appreciate if you could discuss further.
regards
Is this what you mean by at Hyperion:-
HYPERION Wide Angle Zoom Eyepiece 8-24mm - 1.25" its down near the bottom of the web page, says it directly fits an acuter / skywatch scope.
check your PM, i have sent you my contact details, i would appreciate if you could discuss further.
regards
Paul Corfield
Well-known member
I picked up a RMC Tokina Doubler on ebay for £6 this week. It's a 7 element 2X teleconverter and quite a nice one. Sharper and easier to focus than the Tamron one I had been using up till now. Here's a couple of test photos I took today through the william Optics ZS80 telescope. The Magpie photo has lost quite a bit from the original in the jpeg compression as there's quite a bit of detail to compress. The colours in the original are much more vibrant too. The Robin is a leftover Christmas toy that comes in handy for testing when there aren't many birds about. It's a little smaller than a real Robin.
Paul.
Paul.
Attachments
Hi Guys,
I today bought myself a Nikon D60 with an AF-S DX NIKKOR 18 -55 mm f/3.5-5.6G VR Lens, Thanks to Paul, i am now pointing in the right direction with regards to a replacement eyepiece for my cheap Acuter scope, namely a Hyperion 8 - 24 mm Zoom that should fit directly onto my camera.
Before anyone says it, i know i have to learn how to use the camera first. But there is no harm in building my kit up as i learn.
I would appreciate it guys if when browsing Ebay, if you find suitable teleconverters or extension tubes that would suit my equipment please let me have the details. I have seen many items for sale on Ebay and being newish to the DSLR / SLR technology i am unsure of what is good / bad.
Once again i appreciate your patience and help.
regards
I today bought myself a Nikon D60 with an AF-S DX NIKKOR 18 -55 mm f/3.5-5.6G VR Lens, Thanks to Paul, i am now pointing in the right direction with regards to a replacement eyepiece for my cheap Acuter scope, namely a Hyperion 8 - 24 mm Zoom that should fit directly onto my camera.
Before anyone says it, i know i have to learn how to use the camera first. But there is no harm in building my kit up as i learn.
I would appreciate it guys if when browsing Ebay, if you find suitable teleconverters or extension tubes that would suit my equipment please let me have the details. I have seen many items for sale on Ebay and being newish to the DSLR / SLR technology i am unsure of what is good / bad.
Once again i appreciate your patience and help.
regards
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