Trogoniformes (9 Viewers)

[rupicola]

Hi, I've been searching for Trogon gigas for quite some time now and this is what I found out:

“ This handsome Indian species is not only new, but the largest of its genus. It is 18 inches long from
the top of the head to the extremity of the tail. Its body is twice the size of the largest American species.
“ I have only seen three specimens of this fine species ; one in the collection of M. Carbintus at the Hague,
a second at Rotterdam in the possession of M. Gevers, and another in the large and splendid collection of
my friend M. Temminck at Amsterdam. This individual, from which our figure was taken, was sent along
with many other birds from Java. I have seen a fourth specimen in the Paris Museum ; but as it was in an
imperfect state, it has not as yet been placed in the gallery.”

As far as I know the specimens described by LeVaillant (quote above) are the only known specimens of Trogon gigas.
The whereabout's of the specimens from Gevers (Rotterdam) and Carbintus (the Hague) are unknown and most likely to be considered as lost.
Temminck was the founder of one of todays largest collections in the world; Naturalis Biodiversity Center, Leiden, the Netherlands, to which he added his personal collection in 1820. Unfortunately his specimen of Trogon gigas (used by Jacques Barraband to draw the plate in Vaillant's 'Histoire Naturelle des Promerops et des Guepiers' in 1807) is no longer in the Naturalis collection.

Note that John Gould used Barraband's artwork to create his version of Trogon gigas, and never saw an example himself.
Also note that Gould actually placed a questionmark behind Trogon gigas in “A Monograph of the Trogonidae, or Family of Trogons, London (1835–1838)”.

In 'the Catalogue of the Birds in the British Museum' p.477 Le Couroucou Géant, LeVaill. Hist.Courouc. Et Tourac.Pt III. Pl.12 (1806) is indicated as 'doubtful species'.

I have not found gigas in any extinct bird species listing, but who knows, perhaps it slipped through if it actually existed.


As long as no specimen shows up somewhere in the world It will be very hard -if not impossible- to answer our questions about the Giant Trogon.

Regards

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Apparently overlooked

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09524622.2019.1647877

 

[Peter Kovalik]

Dickens J.K., Bitton P.P., Bravo G. A. & Silveira L.F. (2021). Species limits, patterns of secondary contact and a new species in the Trogon rufus complex (Aves: Trogonidae). Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society, in press.

Species limits, patterns of secondary contact and a new species in the Trogon rufus complex (Aves: Trogonidae)

Abstract. The black-throated trogon, Trogon rufus, is a widespread, polytypic species-complex with a convoluted taxonomic history. Here, we integrated morp

academic.oup.com

Abstract
The black-throated trogon, Trogon rufus, is a widespread, polytypic species-complex with a convoluted taxonomic history. Here, we integrated morphological, vocal and genetic datasets, including spectral data and digital quantification of barred plumage, to assess and redefine its species limits according to the foremost species concepts. We suggest the recognition of four named and one new species. Trogon tenellus and T. cupreicauda are divergent across Central and South America without geographic overlap or intermediates. Trogon chrysochloros in the Atlantic Forests of Brazil is phenotypically, genetically and ecologically distinct. In Amazonia, Trogon rufus consists of three phenotypically distinct subspecies intergrading with each other in a ring-like formation around central Amazonian rivers. Trogon rufus rufus in the Guiana Shield, Trogon rufus amazonicus in south-eastern Amazonia and Trogon rufus sulphureus in western Amazonia, with contact across the Lower Amazon and Madeira rivers, likely due to secondary contact between incompletely diverged lineages. The unique combination of song, morphology and mtDNA features of an unnamed, isolated population in the Atlantic Forest of north-eastern Brazil resulted in its description as a new species, known only from the type locality and considered here as Critically Endangered, requiring urgent conservation actions.

Full text attached

Proposal (921) to SACC

Treat Trogon rufus (Black-throated Trogon) as consisting of five species, including one newly described

 

[pbjosh]

Proposal (921) to SACC

Treat Trogon rufus (Black-throated Trogon) as consisting of five species, including one newly described

Parts A, B, and D have passed for a four way split. Part C which was muriciensis (Alagoas) birds did not pass. English names have not been adopted so this hasn't been implemented yet.

 

[Ian Lewis]

I haven't seen these changes listed on the IOC website as proposed splits let alone 'accepted splits with English names to be confirmed'

 

[Mysticete]

I haven't seen these changes listed on the IOC website as proposed splits let alone 'accepted splits with English names to be confirmed'

The main proposal list has this for the proposal:
"Not yet implemented pending proposal on English names."

So there ya go.

 

[Peter Kovalik]

Adam Scott Kennedy, Peter Boesman, Nigel J. Collar, and Lincoln D. C. Fishpool (2022) Geographical variation in the Bar-tailed Trogon Apaloderma vittatum. Bulletin of the British Ornithologists' Club 142:509-525. published online 7 December 2022.
https://doi.org/10.25226/bboc.v142i4.2022.a10

Abstract
Distributed in four areas of Africa (‘Eastern’—east of the Gregory Rift Valley from central Kenya south to Malawi; ‘Central’—west of the Gregory Rift from western Kenya and western Uganda south to Burundi and eastern Democratic Republic of Congo; ‘Western’—Nigeria and Cameroon plus Bioko; and Angola), Bar-tailed Trogon Apaloderma vittatum is at present widely judged to be monotypic. However, photographic evidence reveals three different facial patterns in these populations, with a bare ear spot and whitish-green bill in Eastern and Angolan birds, a bare ear spot, golden-yellow bill and bare gape line in Central birds, and these same features plus a distinct bare crescent above the eye in Western birds. Central and Western birds also have broader, more distinct barring on the wing panel. Moreover, there is a stepped cline in sizes in these three distinct populations, from Eastern plus Angola (largest) through Central to Western (smallest), with Bioko birds having notably short tails; and songs also decelerate from east to west, but with too much overlap to be diagnosable. Nevertheless, under the Tobias criteria the morphological differences of Central and Western birds vs. Eastern and Angolan populations accord the former species rank, for which the name camerunense is available. This latter species itself breaks into three subspecies, with the nominate in Nigeria and Cameroon, francisci on Bioko, and a new name for the hitherto taxonomically unrecognised Central populations.

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

G. Sangster, S.M.S. Gregory & E.C. Dickinson, 2023 (November 20): 3. Apalodermatinae, a new family-group name for the African trogons (Trogonidae), with clarification of the authorship of Harpactini. Pp. 45-52.

https://www.aviansystematics.org/uploads/texteditor/AS_2_3_PDFA.pdf

 

[l_raty]

G. Sangster, S.M.S. Gregory & E.C. Dickinson, 2023 (November 20): 3. Apalodermatinae, a new family-group name for the African trogons (Trogonidae), with clarification of the authorship of Harpactini. Pp. 45-52.

https://www.aviansystematics.org/uploads/texteditor/AS_2_3_PDFA.pdf

Good to have an available Apalodermatinae.

The source of Harpactini identified here is correct, but the suggested authorship is not : the author of the bird section of the English "edition" of Heck's Encyclopaedia (and thus also of this name) was John Cassin, not Spencer F Baird. This can admittedly not be deduced by looking at the second volume of the work (v. 2 - Iconographic encyclopaedia of science, literature, and art - Biodiversity Heritage Library) in isolation, but was explicit in the Preface of the first volume (Iconographic Encyclopaedia of Science, Literature, and Art -- this volume was not about biology and is, quite expectedly, not in BHL). It seems a bit harsh towards the actual author of the text to ignore this. See also this : Outlines of general zoology - Biodiversity Heritage Library, which is a separate edition of the Zoology of the Encyclopaedia, and clearly attributes the "Birds" to Cassin.

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Good to have an available Apalodermatinae.

The source of Harpactini identified here is correct, but the author of the bird section of the English "edition" of Heck's Encyclopaedia (and thus also of this name) was John Cassin, not Baird. This can admittedly not be deduced by looking at the second volume of the work (v. 2 - Iconographic encyclopaedia of science, literature, and art - Biodiversity Heritage Library) in isolation, but was explicit in the Preface of the first volume (Iconographic Encyclopaedia of Science, Literature, and Art -- this volume was not about biology and is, quite expectedly, not in BHL). It seems a bit towards the actual author of the text to ignore this.

I hope Semnornithidae is available

 

[l_raty]

I hope Semnornithidae is available

This was introduced as a subfamily Semnorninae on p. 340 of :

Prum RO. 1988. Phylogenetic interrelationships of the barbets (Aves: Capitonidae) and toucans (Aves: Ramphastidae) based on morphology with comparisons to DNA-DNA hybridization. Zool. J. Linn. Soc., 92: 314-343.
Phylogenetic interrelationships of the barbets (Aves: Capitonidae) and toucans (Aves: Ramphastidae) based on morphology with comparisons to DNA-DNA hybridization

Prum did not associate diagnoses to his new taxa, but his Semnorninae included Semnornis only and, in the description of his character 18, he wrote “In Semnornis the tip of the upper mandible fits in the forked tip of the lower mandible, forming a unique forceps-like bill. This morphology is unique among piciforms and is hypothesized as derived.”
This might possibly be disputable, but I would tend to accept this as sufficient.

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

This was introduced as a subfamily Semnorninae on p. 340 of :

Prum RO. 1988. Phylogenetic interrelationships of the barbets (Aves: Capitonidae) and toucans (Aves: Ramphastidae) based on morphology with comparisons to DNA-DNA hybridization. Zool. J. Linn. Soc., 92: 314-343.
Phylogenetic interrelationships of the barbets (Aves: Capitonidae) and toucans (Aves: Ramphastidae) based on morphology with comparisons to DNA-DNA hybridization

Prum did not associate diagnoses to his new taxa, but his Semnorninae included Semnornis only and, in the description of his character 18, he wrote “In Semnornis the tip of the upper mandible fits in the forked tip of the lower mandible, forming a unique forceps-like bill. This morphology is unique among piciforms and is hypothesized as derived.”
This might possibly be disputable, but I would tend to accept this as sufficient.

Ah yeah, right, it's Prum 🙄 I thought it was Sibley....

 

[l_raty]

Ah yeah, right, it's Prum 🙄 I thought it was Sibley....

Lybiidae was introduced by Sibley (and Ahlquist), in a paper that I have not seen, but where I would expect it to be nude.

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Lybiidae was introduced by Sibley (and Ahlquist), in a paper that I have not seen, but where I would expect it to be nude.

Sangster probably has this paper 🧐

 

[Mysticete]

This is why I don't think taxonomists are necessarily the best folks in charge of common names, and why I hate hyphens

"Gartered Violaceous-Trogon (T. caligatus)

Amazonian (or Amazon*) Violaceous-Trogon (T. ramonianus)

Guianan Violaceous-Trogon (T. violaceus)"

Just please....no.

Add group names to species in the Trogon violaceus (Violaceous Trogon) complex

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

This is why I don't think taxonomists are necessarily the best folks in charge of common names, and why I hate hyphens

"Gartered Violaceous-Trogon (T. caligatus)

Amazonian (or Amazon*) Violaceous-Trogon (T. ramonianus)

Guianan Violaceous-Trogon (T. violaceus)"

Just please....no.

Add group names to species in the Trogon violaceus (Violaceous Trogon) complex

By using a binomial system, you will get rid of that problematic hyphen. Ciao bambino hyphen

 

[pbjosh]

"Gartered Violaceous-Trogon (T. caligatus)
Amazonian (or Amazon*) Violaceous-Trogon (T. ramonianus)
Guianan Violaceous-Trogon (T. violaceus)"

Just please....no.

First, lol. Genuinely.
Second, yeah everything about new world Trogon names is beyond painful.
Third, I actually voted for the compound names.

There are two reasons why: all of the most experienced neotropical birders I know struggle with Trogon names. They know the birds / songs but can’t remember which one is Green-backed and which one is Amazonian and which one is Gartered… or was Gartered retired and replaced with Amazonian and is Green-backed still Green-backed in the Atlantic Forest or did it change names or was it not split or? Of fuck I don’t know what it’s called and I don’t care it’s the one with an all white tail that is singing right now.

That’s basically how birding in the tropics goes unless you’re guiding in which case you have to sort it out ahead of time and make sure not to f*ck it up. So at least if they appear in eBird / BotW / IOC / iGT / etc with full names, it’s a minor chance to try to remember some groupings there…

It’s also why I and others voted for compound names for Black-throated Trogon.

They’re terrible names but at least it helps you remember the changes and which birds are which, and in real life the group names can and will be left out.

Also, if ANYONE has what they feel is a good suggestion for an english name in association with a SACC proposal, email Van Remson, he’ll be happy to have comments and will post them. It’s how I ended up getting involved in some of the english names issues, by sharing thoughts on them.

And my final thought - Trogon names pretty much suck no matter what you do.

 

[Mysticete]

I think honestly its the hyphen thing...just looks weird to me. If it was just Amazon Violaceous Trogon I would probably be more okay with it. At least by using the IOC I can ignore silly hyphens

 

[jts1882]

By using a binomial system, you will get rid of that problematic hyphen. Ciao bambino hyphen

Not entirely. There are quite a few plants and fungi with hyphenated species epithets and even the zoological code allows a few exceptions.

Andrena w-scripta	Polygonia c-album

Article 32.5.2.4.3. If the first element is a Latin letter used to denote descriptively a character of the taxon, it must be retained and connected to the remainder of the name by a hyphen.

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Not entirely. There are quite a few plants and fungi with hyphenated species epithets and even the zoological code allows a few exceptions.

Andrena w-scripta	Polygonia c-album

Article 32.5.2.4.3. If the first element is a Latin letter used to denote descriptively a character of the taxon, it must be retained and connected to the remainder of the name by a hyphen.

I mean for common names