Two people break 10,000 species, and on the same day? Can it be? (2 Viewers)

[Mysticete]

Before I saw any of the birds he is claiming, I saw this, and it also struck me as more than just odd... really nonsensical and borderline impossible.

Hell I have been to South America once and for only a little bit more than a week, and I have Collared Inca on my list

 

[eci datriana]

The full read is above, but to save time I’ve highlighted the salient points.

love to see the bold sentences, thanks mate! exactly the points I got from full reading Jason`s

 

[etudiant]

Despite the variously raised doubts, I'm happy to wait and see what Dr Manns actual records show.
He has removed the perceived first to 10,000 species hurdle, so there is no rush, people can examine and evaluate his documentation at leisure, in a spirit of comity.
Otherwise, it becomes.a rerun of the Night Parrot saga, where the finder was ridiculed and mocked as a fraud. People went over the top in their expressions of disbelief.
John Young eventually produced indisputable evidence that he had indeed rediscovered the bird, which had been believed to be extinct, but got no benefit from his discovery afaik.

 

[Mike Hunter]

Despite the variously raised doubts, I'm happy to wait and see what Dr Manns actual records show.
He has removed the perceived first to 10,000 species hurdle, so there is no rush, people can examine and evaluate his documentation at leisure, in a spirit of comity.
Otherwise, it becomes.a rerun of the Night Parrot saga, where the finder was ridiculed and mocked as a fraud. People went over the top in their expressions of disbelief.
John Young eventually produced indisputable evidence that he had indeed rediscovered the bird, which had been believed to be extinct, but got no benefit from his discovery afaik.

I agree with these comments etudiant.

Jason Mann has reflected on the feedback received and provided an explanation. He has graciously and wholeheartedly supported Peter's achievement, and it's this we need to focus on; epic and historic still don't do it justice!

Let's all be kind and give Jason time to sort out whatever needs sorting out. It's easy to make listing mistakes (my own Western Palearctic list crept up by one recently until I worked out I'd added Yellow-browed Bunting instead of Yellow-browed Warbler!).

What this reveals is the need for greater transparency in the increasingly competitive world of global listing. In this case iGoTerra's open data policy of allowing member access to member data has played a pivotal role in this historic 'race' to 10,000.

As an aside, I've tried a few listing tools over the years and iGoTerra is easily the best observation and listing tool for birders*. Click on this link for your free trial: https://igoterra.com/signup.

Cheers

Mike
[* In the interests of transparency I joined iGoTerra's management team as I was genuinely impressed by their client focus, and commitment to innovation and invention].

 

[Owene]

Hi Jason

I think you should be commended for starting to address the many questions your claims have provoked. It would have been easier to hide away.

I’m sure you will get around to the various Tepui endemics & other contentious records, but as an Igoterra subscriber myself, my questions are about the 122 countries where you have only recorded one species. On closer investigation, all 122 appear to be your first ever observations of those species, in other words lifers for you. I can see why that might be an attractive way of inputting a lot of data, recording only the important birds for your list rather than endless Cattle egrets etc.

I’ve copied just six countries where only one species is reported and in each case it was a lifer for you at the time:

Belgium: European goldfinch
Germany: Carrion crow
Luxembourg: Eurasian skylark
Romania: Barn swallow
Albania: Great crested grebe
Croatia: Common starling

North Korea: Taiga bean goose

I could go on, there are 122 examples in your own published data. How is it possible for the World’s Top Birder, or any birder, to visit the six European countries listed and somehow miss the other five species whilst there?

Out of curiosity, when did you go to North Korea & what was the birding like there?

I use igoterra and what it has as my FO if quite a few common species are messed up. I think data entry and how you use the site covers a lot of issues.

I have a few common plants entered for Finland because I saw no birds there but wanted to have Finland shaded in on the map on the front page as it’s a neat visual of your travels. When I did this I was barely listing plants so they are probably my FO


I could easily see the idea of wanting to show you’ve been to Belgium so giving it a species

I’ve toyed with the idea of putting in house sparrow or feral pigeon for countries I’ve visited decades ago but have no wildlife recorded for (but haven’t actually done so so far).

I think for species people saw before they were actually using Igoterra every single list on there will have quite a high proportion of meaningless mistakes

 

[mjh73]

Otherwise, it becomes.a rerun of the Night Parrot saga, where the finder was ridiculed and mocked as a fraud. People went over the top in their expressions of disbelief.
John Young eventually produced indisputable evidence that he had indeed rediscovered the bird, which had been believed to be extinct, but got no benefit from his discovery afaik.

That is so far from the reality of the JY story, let alone the Night Parrot story, I don't know where to start.....so I won't, since this thread is not the place for it anyway.

 

[kb57]

Hell I have been to South America once and for only a little bit more than a week, and I have Collared Inca on my list

Same here, and I’d wager my South American list is likely less impressive than yours!

 

[kb57]

I use igoterra and what it has as my FO if quite a few common species are messed up. I think data entry and how you use the site covers a lot of issues.

I have a few common plants entered for Finland because I saw no birds there but wanted to have Finland shaded in on the map on the front page as it’s a neat visual of your travels. When I did this I was barely listing plants so they are probably my FO


I could easily see the idea of wanting to show you’ve been to Belgium so giving it a species

I’ve toyed with the idea of putting in house sparrow or feral pigeon for countries I’ve visited decades ago but have no wildlife recorded for (but haven’t actually done so so far).

I think for species people saw before they were actually using Igoterra every single list on there will have quite a high proportion of meaningless mistakes

It’s similar in a way with eBird - I’ve got I think 4 common species for Pakistan, seen on an overnight stopover in Karachi, of zero citizen science value but it documents my visit.
Also with eBird it’s easy to ‘pocket record’ species when using Mobile Tracks, making it easy to submit completely spurious records if you’re not careful when reviewing. I’ve seen a few lists which clearly contain such inadvertent errors.

 

[Rob Hunt]

It’s very easy to make mistakes when entering records. I used to keep my World list on an IOC spreadsheet with a column added for counting number of species seen in each family and also the overall total. Since then I also enter my records onto Scythebill. Needless to say the two counts didn’t tally. It took me a considerable amount of double checking before the two figures did coincide. This was with just 7000 species. One of the species I had omitted from the spreadsheet was Dartford Warbler! I now keep both up to date as a double check.
I feel if you are claiming such an incredible figure as breaking the 10,000 species barrier more care should have been taken to ensure the total was correct.

 

[Jos Stratford]

I have a few common plants entered for Finland because I saw no birds there but wanted to have Finland shaded in on the map on the front page as it’s a neat visual of your travels.

How did you manage to go to Finland and see no birds at all? That's another impressive feat

 

[Owene]

How did you manage to go to Finland and see no birds at all? That's another impressive feat

It was a flying visit kids go to Lapland to see Santa thing that my mum bought my daughter. We had about 40 minutes of daylight a few hundred miles from the pole

 

[Jos Stratford]

It was a flying visit kids go to Lapland to see Santa thing that my mum bought my daughter. We had about 40 minutes of daylight a few hundred miles from the pole

Well at least you will have got one mammal 🦌
🙂

 

[dominic.patagonia]

Hi all, this is Jason Mann. I've just seen these comments - thank you! I view life as a team sport and value constructive criticism. Clearly I made some errors when inputting my sightings into iGoTerra. New Caledonian Nightjar, for example. I'm not sure how that happened, but when I saw that Surfbirds was not stable anymore I worked quickly in the 2 months to pull together my updated IOC list (through version 14.1) for iGoTerra, which now seems like the best place for these lists. At the same time I worked to input my non-bird taxa (still a work in progress). All told I have uploaded around 20,000 species, many of which are not yet in the iGoTerra taxonomic database. It is a massive effort to collate all my notes after 37 years of birding almost everywhere, plus the non-bird taxa, aligning taxonomies with the platform, and so on. I view iGoTerra as a great tool, well overdue and I hope to contribute more going forward. I had used Surfbirds sparingly over the years, but as I mentioned to Peter I had not updated my totals in a while because listing is not my focus and the website seemed unstable recently.

For context, another challenge is that my internal database is a blend of IOC, Clements, the old HBW/BirdLife list, undescribed species (like Timor Nightjar), plus forms I anticipate have a good chance of being split in the future. I think Phoebe used something along these lines as well. Thus when I joined the platform recently it was not trivial to filter out my current (14.1) IOC list. Secondly, I focus on "target birds" and in some of my files I've X-ed out birds that I consider unfindable, such as New Caledonian Nightjar. I think the errors arose when I accidentally marked those X's as "seen" for the iGoTerra list. I caught a few of these errors before uploading but apparently I also missed some. My sincere apologies.

On the other hand, I can confirm that I have seen many of the rare birds mentioned, for example, Sulawesi Woodcock at Lore Lindu, New Ireland Dwarf Kingfisher near Rubio Plantation, and that arduous hike for Taliabu Bush Warbler last year. I joined a tour for that trip and I think I was the only person to see the bird that day.

As several people have noted, not only am I new to the iGoTerra platform, I'm also new to the public side of big listing. There are a few reasons for this: aside from family and work my main interest is the birds themselves and the broader ecology, tying to my science background (I have a PhD in biology). Also, I work in a very competitive business field, so for me getting outside, enjoying some solitude, and hiking to remote areas is a good balance to my busy family and work life. I've been known to run on lots of trails and have spent many nights in arduous field conditions, enjoying being unplugged from time to time. I'm based outside the US and have not joined many tour groups, for several reasons. When not in the field I'm focused on family and work and have not prioritized reporting, records committees, writing trip summaries and so on. I'm grateful for those who do invest time in these areas.

But there have been some key sightings over the years - one of my first rarities was finding a female Tufted Duck well inland in California more than 3 decades ago (potentially the first away from the California coast, and perhaps notable for a middle schooler on a bicycle), and while in Peru in 2010 with John Arnett and my wife I found what may be the first Unicolored Blackbird for the country (still the only eBird record for Peru 14 years later, I think). So while I have not prioritized the public, competitive aspects of birding, I've enjoyed making time to travel almost everywhere and see as much as possible (increasingly with non-bird taxa as I gain experience). I could make similar comments about photography - I'm beginning to take some photos now but for the vast majority of my birding career (which started many years before eBird) I've traveled light, more likely to read maps and scientific papers than stop for photos or compare lists with anyone else. The milestones are great but to me the real joy is in the journey, like hiking this morning in the Perijá mountains. To my surprise I was able to take a decent picture of Perija Thistletail, which I'll post to iGoTerra.

So that is some context. In terms of the 10,000 milestone, how remarkable is it that both Peter and I were so close after decades of birding. To me it was a real privilege to have such a close, neck-and-neck race at the end. My hope is that any associated publicity helps move birding forward, raising awareness for more people to enjoy and protect nature.

In summary, I'm comfortable with >99% of the list I've built on iGoTerra in the last couple of months but recognize that in haste there were a few oversights, which I take responsibility for. I'm on the road in Colombia but will correct these as soon as possible. Please feel free to send any others to drjasonmann (at) gmail. But with 10,021 on my iGoTerra bird list today I am certainly past (or very close to) 10,000, which I see as a major accomplishment at this point in my life.

But given that I made a few errors when assembling this list, I think it best to put my support behind Peter as the first birder to 10,000. I don't want there to be any question, and in my view he is extremely deserving! I'll make sure to communicate this directly to him later today.

I celebrate Peter and other world-class listers, and do not consider myself in competition with any of them. My main passion in this part of my life is getting outside, enjoying nature, exploring new areas, conservation, and empowering local communities to protect their local areas. I'm also excited about the publishing of more field guides beyond birds (and bird guides in non-English languages), and one book I wrote recently is with the publisher now. I hope that we can continue to pull together as a birding community to promote conservation, sustainability, and just the sheer fun of getting outside in nature.

So let's congratulate Peter for the accomplishment of a lifetime. And if anyone would like to join me in the field someday, or help raise awareness or funding for conservation, just let me know.

With best regards, Jason

Thanks for posting and doing so openly. I think a lot of the skepticism was down to you being totally off the radar. For example I was guiding 300+ days a year in Argentina at that point (and also In Venezuela) and some of the VZ birds especially seemed unlikely for a gringo wandering around on his to go unnoticed by any local birders / guides etc. But everyone has their own way of birding and your wanting solitude I can empathise with and isn’t in and of itself a reason for disbelief. I think you probably just need to provide some evidence- I’d start with those two extremely tough Venezuelan birds. There is a strong Venezolano birding community. In retrospect, myself as a feral Gen-X birder at the bottom of Patagonia splitting my time between alpine guiding and bird guiding i also spent a long time (before the days of ebird etc) only writing down lifers on the back of my cigarette packs only to lose them again. But I think in 2024 it’s slightly naive to produce this list without decades of photos, recordings, field sketches or descriptive evidence. Just my two cents. Not a judgement.

 

[dominic.patagonia]

I agree with these comments etudiant.

Jason Mann has reflected on the feedback received and provided an explanation. He has graciously and wholeheartedly supported Peter's achievement, and it's this we need to focus on; epic and historic still don't do it justice!

Let's all be kind and give Jason time to sort out whatever needs sorting out. It's easy to make listing mistakes (my own Western Palearctic list crept up by one recently until I worked out I'd added Yellow-browed Bunting instead of Yellow-browed Warbler!).

What this reveals is the need for greater transparency in the increasingly competitive world of global listing. In this case iGoTerra's open data policy of allowing member access to member data has played a pivotal role in this historic 'race' to 10,000.

As an aside, I've tried a few listing tools over the years and iGoTerra is easily the best observation and listing tool for birders*. Click on this link for your free trial: https://igoterra.com/signup.

Cheers

Mike
[* In the interests of transparency I joined iGoTerra's management team as I was genuinely impressed by their client focus, and commitment to innovation and invention].

That depends a little on which taxonomy you want to use. As a platform the interface and data output by ebird is far better - in terms of sample size, granularity of data and much more, (notwithstanding the fact it is only for birds).

 

[dominic.patagonia]

Everyone has their own rules. Some count heard only, some don't. Some keep separate lists of the two. And as for your second question, pretty much every species' calls are known. Heard only records should be subject to the same confirmation as seen records (in some cases, species can only be told apart by voice anyway, with no visual differences)

Exactly. The bias towards seen-only records is odd. Your ears are working 100% of the time you’re not asleep. Assuming you don’t have a hearing issue or lack of acoustic knowledge there is zero reason aural records are less valid that visual ones. Most people are visually dominant but not everyone. Look up Juan Pablo Culasso as a case in point.

 

[madpitta]

I agree with these comments etudiant.

Jason Mann has reflected on the feedback received and provided an explanation. He has graciously and wholeheartedly supported Peter's achievement, and it's this we need to focus on; epic and historic still don't do it justice!

Let's all be kind and give Jason time to sort out whatever needs sorting out. It's easy to make listing mistakes (my own Western Palearctic list crept up by one recently until I worked out I'd added Yellow-browed Bunting instead of Yellow-browed Warbler!).

What this reveals is the need for greater transparency in the increasingly competitive world of global listing. In this case iGoTerra's open data policy of allowing member access to member data has played a pivotal role in this historic 'race' to 10,000.

As an aside, I've tried a few listing tools over the years and iGoTerra is easily the best observation and listing tool for birders*. Click on this link for your free trial: https://igoterra.com/signup.

Cheers

Mike
[* In the interests of transparency I joined iGoTerra's management team as I was genuinely impressed by their client focus, and commitment to innovation and invention].

His post did not sound gracious to me . His explanations were nonsense, and he still claims to be 10k+. Teleportation to 10k (or close to it) and signing off with a show of faux virtue, managing to roll back some of his widespread ridicule, is a great compromise for him after comically overplaying his hand in front of the entire birding community. A busy person in a competitive business, by his admission, having barely birded outside the US until July 2007 and virtually unknown (no pun intended), is not a recipe for 10k in 15 years. Btw he has expressed an interest in world records and made a dubious claim related to his very first trip to South America - the post in the link below is not very consistent with maintaining a publicity-free quest to 10k .

[TN-Bird] World Record in South America

[TN-Bird] World Record in South America, tn-bird at FreeLists

www.freelists.org

 

[Mike Hunter]

His post did not sound gracious to me . His explanations were nonsense, and he still claims to be 10k+. Teleportation to 10k (or close to it) and signing off with a show of faux virtue, managing to roll back some of his widespread ridicule, is a great compromise for him after comically overplaying his hand in front of the entire birding community. A busy person in a competitive business, by his admission, having barely birded outside the US until July 2007 and virtually unknown (no pun intended), is not a recipe for 10k in 15 years. Btw he has expressed an interest in world records and made a dubious claim related to his very first trip to South America - the post in the link below is not very consistent with maintaining a publicity-free quest to 10k .

[TN-Bird] World Record in South America

[TN-Bird] World Record in South America, tn-bird at FreeLists

www.freelists.org

Hi madpitta

You may be right in the final analysis, what I was saying is that now is the time to share Peter's achievement. He has relied on support from many across the birding community to reach this pinnacle. In return he's been a superb ambassador for birding, eBird and iGoTerra, laying many a 'breadcrumb' trail across the globe for others, underpinned by his philosophy to leave records for posterity and science. Any recriminations elsewhere can follow... though the genie is already out of the bottle.

Not wishing to in any way comment about Jason Mann, your short paragraph is the best written I've ever seen on Birdforum; just wish I had that skill!

Thanks

Mike

PS I'm also somewhat partial to pittas!

 

[Ludocitrus]

I thought Cozumel Thrasher was considered extinct, or is it one of his older records?


And there are also many excellent birders who're not on this forum. I doubt it's even possible to narrow the title of "best birdwatcher" down to one person or even a small group.

I wonder what does it mean to be “the best birder”. As if there was a single, best way to go birding!

 

[Jason Mann]

Hi all, it's Jason Mann with one last message for now. Thanks for your comments - I've learned a lot the last few days. I also had a nice note from Peter, and I appreciate his advice.

Unfortunately I'm also concerned about Manakin Nature Tours and any potential negative impact, which would not be fair to them. I hope that we can continue (or increase) our support of Luis and this company. They did not guide me and I take personal responsibility for my iGoTerra list construction (which was unrelated to this trip). I've asked them to remove the announcement. Plus the logistics support they provided was excellent. So please spread the word about Manakin and consider working with them on your next visit.

That said, this trip has been intense (I haven't sat down for a meal in 2-3 days) as I've been focused on the task at hand, with lots of 3:30 and 4am starts. Today I almost dipped Black-backed Thornbill. There are also lots of detailed questions here, like where did I see Hainan Peacock Pheasant? In Hainan, Jianfengling NFP specifically. And on the Collared Inca - as you would imagine I've seen this many times. I snapped a picture the other day (working on my photography skills) and uploaded it to iGoTerra. So I reported it on the platform but it was not a lifer.

So what next? Some of this exchange feels a little hostile to me, and it's difficult to manage alongside everything else. I bird for fun and growth, and I've told myself that when it's not fun anymore, I'll stop. I'm considering removing the 500 rarest species from my public list or deleting my account altogether. While I sort that out, I think it makes sense to pause for now.

Thanks again for the constructive comments as I work to meld my lifetime of outdoor pursuits with an online community. Please support Manakin. And on the birding side, feel free to reach out if you know of opportunities to visit Temotu (Santa Cruz Islands), the French Subantarctic islands, or the Louisiade Archipelago. Alongside my family and work, I'm so grateful to explore this world through birds.

Kind regards and good birding,
Jason

 

[KenM]

I wonder what does it mean to be “the best birder”. As if there was a single, best way to go birding!

Must be open to interpretation…..?