Two questions from Trondheim, Norway, Sept 15: Sprawk or Goshawk? and which 1C "Comic" tern? (1 Viewer)

[Doc Duck]

Two birds I'm unsure of from yesterday's survey walk along the fjord shore. Sorry about photo quality. They were pretty distant and since I wasn't prepared to either fly or swim, I couldn't get closer. Also, to "shoot" the hawk, I had to tip my head waaaay back, so hard to stand entirely still. But anyway, here goes. Oh, and please, if you can, explain what you're seeing that tells you what's what here. It's not just about getting the ID right, but also about learning how to ID one at next encounter. Thanks in advance!

 

[tconzemi]

Sprawk (barred inner secondaries)

 

[THE_FERN]

The tern has very short legs implying Arctic

 

[Belumat]

Although the view is not the best, it is a goshawk because : massive body, fairly long wings and longer arm than in sparrowhawks, protruding head, tail with rounded corners

 

[Sangahyando]

It's a bit hard to see in these pictures, but the arm on the hawk doesn't look that long IMO. I'd also go with Sparrowhawk based on overall impression. The angle probably makes it look stockier in both images.

 

[Richard Dale]

It is not a goshawk. See Tom's comment above for a diagnostic reason that it is a sparrowhawk.

 

[Belumat]

The tail has a wide base and the corners are rounded. The protruding secondaries are also goshawk-like. I wouldn't bet the house on it though....

 

[Rotherbirder]

The tail has a wide base and the corners are rounded. The protruding secondaries are also goshawk-like. I wouldn't bet the house on it though....

... or you'd definitely be homeless !

RB

 

[S_Man]

The tail has a wide base and the corners are rounded. The protruding secondaries are also goshawk-like. I wouldn't bet the house on it though....

Its abdomen appears to be striated instead of barred... juvenile Goshawk?

 

[smiths]

The tern looks like a Common tern to me, due to the pale eyering (well visible in last picture) and the shape of the black cap, notably the distinct 'ear lobe' behind the eye and the lack of an extensive black patch in front of the eye. Also quite a prominent black carpal bar. Note also the extensive amount of black on the underside of the wingtip. The legs can look quite short in a resting Common; they would look even shorter in Arctic.

The accipiter is a Sparrowhawk. The underparts are actually finely barred, if you zoom in on the pictures.

 

[01101001]

Why not second-plumage Goshawk?

(Knowing that the inner secondary barring feature isn't always diagnostic.)

 

[01101001]

Additional context for my question.

Northern Goshawk flight identification and ageing in the UK - Revised and updated

Northern Goshawk, Goshawk, Goshawk identification, Goshawk ageing, Goshawk Peak District

andybutlerdiaries.blogspot.com

 

[01101001]

@Valéry Schollaert It seems that you are one of few people who haven't had the occassion to respond to this thread. What else makes the OP's bird a Sparrowhawk?

 

[Andy Adcock]

Its abdomen appears to be striated instead of barred... juvenile Goshawk?

Clean your glasses, definitely barred and definitely Spar.

 

[01101001]

I (also) agree it's barred.

EDIT:

Where plumage details can be seen Sparrowhawk always shows barred secondaries. In Goshawk these are only present in First (juvenile) and Second Plumages. First Plumage Goshawk has a heavily streaked not barred breast but identification of Second Plumage Goshawk requires additional features

I can't see additional features pointing to Sparrowhawk, but a few pointing to Goshawk. Let's say a Sparrowhawk could have rounded tail corners due to wear (if they haven't been replaced yet), but what about the other pro-Goshawk features?

From what I understand, 2nd plumage in this case = 2nd calendar year in autumn, so there's no reason why the underwing barring wouldn't be fresh in mid-September for a bird that has freshly transitioned from juvenile plumage (let me know if I'm getting my moult calendar wrong). Is mid-September too early for 2nd plumage in Goshawks?

 

[01101001]

Raptor identification is complex, and ID'ing a difficult (for me) species pair based on a single countervailing definitive feature that is not definitive (in the case when the barring is present), doesn't satisfact me.

 

[Butty]

tail with rounded corners

No.

tail . . . corners are rounded

No.

 

[01101001]

Let's assume it's so. What about head, breast and wing shape? Still an Accipiter sp. for me (if not Goshawk).

EDIT: Comparison shot with a(n adult female) Sparrowhawk (shorter-necked and more compact overall, narrower wings at the base, shorter wings relative to body length; less brawny breast):

 

[01101001]

The tail and body are foreshortened, which might influence the presence or lack of the crosslike jizz (EDIT 2: if those two were foreshortened, the wing in terms of breadth would be foreshortened as well).

EDIT: It used to be attached upthread but now is attached here. Blasco Zumeta's guide shows a photo of a juvenile female with full juvenile breast streaking taken on the 6th of October. So, assuming it could be too early for 2nd plumage in mid-September (or is there individual variation?), how are the differences in build and proportions visible in the comparison above explained?

But, then, the articles says:

The Goshawk retains its juvenile plumage from fledging in July through to September of the second calendar year.

but (for older birds, I assume, because it speaks about complete, not postjuvenile, moult):

The Goshawk has a complete moult each year mainly during June to October.

Complicated..? Differences between regions or individuals?

EDIT 3: I would also be inclined to dismiss breast depth and head size from my list of features because, to me, judging them can be subjective unless in extreme cases. Still, doesn't the wing shape (foreshortened or not) makes me err towards Goshawk?

 

[smiths]

Just compare the width of the wings.
Goshawk has clearly broader wings, with much more bulging secondaries.
Also, note how the white undertail coverts form only a narrow, tight and pointed patch on the underside of the tail in the OP bird, whereas in Goshawk they are again clearly broader and easily reach the tail sides. Note also the slim body of the OP bird.
Even in 2cy autumn Goshawk, the dark barring on the secondaries fades towards the body, becoming less defined on inners compared to outers and also less defined than the (basal) tail barring.
There is absolutely nothing in the two OP photos that suggests Goshawk, so I don't see why we should twist and turn to make it into that species?