Victory FL vs SF (1 Viewer)

[Paultricounty]

1. Well, you're a birder, and you know a falconer. Which raptor species, in your experience, would you expect to find perched up on high buildings and the tops of construction cranes in the middle of major urban centres?

You might also want to ask your falconer buddy, if you have not seen it yourself, how far, and fast, wild falcons can range. You have already noted he can "while driving down the road spots a critter sitting in a tree or flying about and announces there's Red Shouldered Hawk. Not complaining or noticing the thing is hundreds of yards away." This is (I would hope!!!) with the naked eye. How much further would he be able to identify key raptor species with the aid of a good 10x binocular? Factor in that ID can often be made via manner of flight - a falcon flies differently to an accipiter or a buteo, and that difference often can be discerned even when the bird is so far away that its shape can't be determined.

Earlier today I followed the final bird I was tracking during my lunchtime session from my office rooftop until it was blocked by a building that I later found to be 1.9km away. It was almost certainly some distance behind the building when lost. The female of that pair was for most of my session sat on a ledge on a building just under 1km away. That is the kind of birding I do.


2. The uses of wide FOV, in my situation, are:

- when searching, you are able to scan the sector of sky you are searching more quickly - this I would hope is immediately obvious and is the reason why wartime binoculars like the Sard and the widefield 7x50s were developed - to more quickly sweep large areas of sky or water looking for hostile dots in the air or white feathers on the surface.

- when on a fast-moving bird the larger the FOV the easier is it to capture the bird in it - which can be a great advantage when the bird is moving quickly and making rapid changes of direction. This tends to be more of an advantage at what I would call middle distances (between say 500 and 1200m). The example of this that springs most readily to mind was one morning observing a tiercel peregrine hunting. He went after a high-flying pigeon and I found myself almost grinning in pleasure at how effortless it was to capture the manoeuvres of both birds with the wide field 7x35 I was using on that occasion. Another example: following a stooping bird, already travelling at great speed - and suddenly getting "smoked" - the bird somehow turning on the afterburners so quickly it simply disappears from sight. When this happens I normally have to pan downwards along the path I think it has gone. Most often it's gone for good, but sometimes I succeed in finding it - descending at a speed much greater than when I'd lost it, a speed you can hardly believe any living thing can reach. But just once I was lucky enough to see, after getting smoked, what looked like a dark streak disappearing into the very bottom right corner of my field of view, and follow the living missile down from there. The wider the FOV the more time my eyes have to adjust to that sudden enormous acceleration and find my target before it disappears. I'd love to try something like a 10x42 NL - between the wide field and the steadiness I would hope the headrest delivers, it should perform extremely well. I just need to save up enough pennies until a secondhand unit becomes affordable... which will probably be a decade from now!

Two word, three syllables , spotting scope. Add an ATX 95mm with that NL and your good to go. 😏

 

[GrampaTom]

1. Well, you're a birder, and you know a falconer. Which raptor species, in your experience, would you expect to find perched up on high buildings and the tops of construction cranes in the middle of major urban centres?

You might also want to ask your falconer buddy, if you have not seen it yourself, how far, and fast, wild falcons can range. You have already noted he can "while driving down the road spots a critter sitting in a tree or flying about and announces there's Red Shouldered Hawk. Not complaining or noticing the thing is hundreds of yards away." This is (I would hope!!!) with the naked eye. How much further would he be able to identify key raptor species with the aid of a good 10x binocular? Factor in that ID can often be made via manner of flight - a falcon flies differently to an accipiter or a buteo, and that difference often can be discerned even when the bird is so far away that its shape can't be determined.

Earlier today I followed the final bird I was tracking during my lunchtime session from my office rooftop until it was blocked by a building that I later found to be 1.9km away. It was almost certainly some distance behind the building when lost. The female of that pair was for most of my session sat on a ledge on a building just under 1km away. That is the kind of birding I do.


2. The uses of wide FOV, in my situation, are:

- when searching, you are able to scan the sector of sky you are searching more quickly - this I would hope is immediately obvious and is the reason why wartime binoculars like the Sard and the widefield 7x50s were developed - to more quickly sweep large areas of sky or water looking for hostile dots in the air or white feathers on the surface.

- when on a fast-moving bird the larger the FOV the easier is it to capture the bird in it - which can be a great advantage when the bird is moving quickly and making rapid changes of direction. This tends to be more of an advantage at what I would call middle distances (between say 500 and 1200m). The example of this that springs most readily to mind was one morning observing a tiercel peregrine hunting. He went after a high-flying pigeon and I found myself almost grinning in pleasure at how effortless it was to capture the manoeuvres of both birds with the wide field 7x35 I was using on that occasion. Another example: following a stooping bird, already travelling at great speed - and suddenly getting "smoked" - the bird somehow turning on the afterburners so quickly it simply disappears from sight. When this happens I normally have to pan downwards along the path I think it has gone. Most often it's gone for good, but sometimes I succeed in finding it - descending at a speed much greater than when I'd lost it, a speed you can hardly believe any living thing can reach. But just once I was lucky enough to see, after getting smoked, what looked like a dark streak disappearing into the very bottom right corner of my field of view, and follow the living missile down from there. The wider the FOV the more time my eyes have to adjust to that sudden enormous acceleration and find my target before it disappears. I'd love to try something like a 10x42 NL - between the wide field and the steadiness I would hope the headrest delivers, it should perform extremely well. I just need to save up enough pennies until a secondhand unit becomes affordable... which will probably be a decade from now!

Just found this, wondered what had happened with it, sorry. Many years ago, in a place where my falconing pal was also located, but not with me same day, I was perched on a bit of high ground on a ridgeline that ran east-west. Using a map, 1000 Meters to the south was another ridgeline running parallel to the one I was on. Peering through some long forgotten X binos (maybe 7, certainly not more than 8s), we could observe some representatives of the human species moving about. Could not tell male from female, color of hair or eyes. Neither could we make out what color or style of clothing they were wearing. Nothing in the way they moved, their silhouette, informed any of that.... How many bird for that sort of visual experience?

Point? Certainly I get, with knowledge born of experience/study, (like my falconing pal, possesses), especially in a well known area, one can look out at a thousand yards and id say, raptor species. He does it all the time. He also though, possess many binoculars and has used them to learn what to expect. Can you tell gender? Im skeptical. Can you see mature-immature? I'm doubtful... unless you "know" the current breeding seasons. Can you appreciate the markings, coloration? In your mind's eye, of course. When youre used to an area, you know what to expect. Part of what you claim to see, is really what you know, from familiarity with the area, whats there, as you describe. Given a decent view of the blacked out, (for thats what it is at that distance), outline, a well trained person can id the species. My duck hunting pals do it all the time, discerning one species from another in flight, way off, as they must do, to stay in synch with regulations. They can tell from outline, wing beat, way they fly what variety it is. This is specialized knowledge derived from lots of experience, that makes the id, but can't see the details. What did I write? Forgot zactly, something like "Who bird's at a thousand yards?" Lee tells me there's 170,000 "members" or watchers at Birdforum. There were 3 of you who raised your hands, to my fairly hyperbolic question. Im sure theres more, but how many? 3/170,000 = ?%. I think the point I attempted was fair enough. Answer more accurately is, "not many." Im comfortable saying most birders do not bird at a thousand yards, Black Crowned Chickadees on the feeder at 30', Green Winged Teal out over the marsh at 50-100 yards, even a peregrine falcon on the Campanile at UC Berkeley are not at 1000 yards.

Now as to FOV at distance. I'm struggling with this. The further out we go, we now know after that exhaustive/exhausting back and forth last week discussing anglular FOV, the further out we go, the wider is the view. Tracking fast moving birds with the published bino company data at 1000 yards and say 400' of viewing width, seems plenty. I get in closer, ahem, where most of us bird, it becomes a thing and fast. That flitting peregrine, capable of 200 MPH in a stoop, can exit the now 40' FOV at 100 yards waay too fast. But 400 at a thousand, you cant track? I confess, on this I am ignorant, having never tried.

 

[PW42]

JUsing a map, 1000 Kms to the south was another ridgeline running parallel to the one I was on. Peering through some long forgotten X binos (maybe 7, certainly not more than 8s), we could observe some representatives of the human species moving about.

Some binos!

 

[GrampaTom]

Some binos!

They were not!

 

[Paultricounty]

They were not!

If you have a 7x or 8x binocular , you walk a little closer for more detail. If it’s a 1000 yards away, you use a spotting scope , at over a 1000 yards, a telescope ( with bino viewer if inclined). Further than that , a US military satellite with a lap top works good. 😜✌🏼.

 

[PW42]

They were not!

1000 kms? !!

 

[GrampaTom]

Yea, my bad. Went for a hike and ran it through my head and went Woops. Meant 1000 meters. Sorry. Hopefully I can edit later?

 

[GrampaTom]

Got it, fixed

 

[Patudo]

... we could observe some representatives of the human species moving about. Could not tell male from female, color of hair or eyes. Neither could we make out what color or style of clothing they were wearing. Nothing in the way they moved, their silhouette, informed any of that.... How many bird for that sort of visual experience?

Can you tell gender? Im skeptical. Can you see mature-immature? I'm doubtful... unless you "know" the current breeding seasons. Can you appreciate the markings, coloration? In your mind's eye, of course.

Now as to FOV at distance. I'm struggling with this. The further out we go, we now know after that exhaustive/exhausting back and forth last week discussing anglular FOV, the further out we go, the wider is the view. Tracking fast moving birds with the published bino company data at 1000 yards and say 400' of viewing width, seems plenty. I get in closer, ahem, where most of us bird, it becomes a thing and fast. That flitting peregrine, capable of 200 MPH in a stoop, can exit the now 40' FOV at 100 yards waay too fast. But 400 at a thousand, you cant track? I confess, on this I am ignorant, having never tried.

It does get harder to tell age and sex as the bird is further away, but - in all honesty I am not too worried about those distinctions so long as the species is correct, as both male and female are capable of doing awesome things. I have, more times than I can count, watched enthralled by a tiny little shape high in the sky - by its mastery of flight, apparent even at that great distance, that makes it seem to dominate the immensity of the sky - or held my breath spellbound as the reversed heart shape of a distant stooping falcon, like a tiny black teardrop, comes plummeting down through the heavens. It is not given to most birdwatchers, let alone most of humanity, to see such sights. If you limit your horizons to one kilometre you will never see many of the most impressive spectacles that this species, that has captured the imagination of observers probably since time immemorial, can show you.

"Tracking fast moving birds with the published bino company data at 1000 yards and say 400' of viewing width, seems plenty." - and I agree with this but how fast is fast? Going fast in level flight they come up to pigeons that were probably travelling at about 35 to 40 mph effortlessly. I don't know how much faster they are when stooping, but it's a lot faster. It's not just the speed but suddenness of acceleration (from a bird that is already travelling at great speed) that is staggering - the bird just vanishing from my field of view like a magic trick. A chap called Dave Johnson who has often watched them in London describes it: "it will start its dive, first pumping its wings to accelerate then closing them tight to its body and travelling at immense speed. Just when it seems that it cannot go any faster, it hits turbo - and then the speed is truly unbelievable. On one occasion, when a Peregrine soared up into the clouds, the Met Office confirmed the cloud base as being at 1,200 metres (4,000 feet)." Wide FOV also lets you, when watching a hunt, see the prey earlier, see its evasive manoeuvres better; when watching a courtship flight you can stay with both birds longer before you have to pick one, etc. It is a real advantage and, although I am content with my "austerity alpha", it would certainly be nice if its field of view matched the 130m of my old Zeiss West, while remaining sharp to the edge.

You will get a better idea of the challenges involved if you can devote a few days to watching the birds closest to you. This time of the year should be great for seeing courtship flights and territorial displays, which can be spectacular. Earlier today I watched, from my regular viewing point over 1.25km away, the male and female of one of the pairs in the City of London doing roller-coaster manoeuvres around and over the 400-foot blocks of the Barbican Centre - masterfully using the wind (14 to 30mph today) as they went sweeping up and around. We are fortunate that so many of us can, with a little patience and dedication, witness spectacles like this.

 

[PW42]

Yea, my bad. Went for a hike and ran it through my head and went Woops. Meant 1000 meters. Sorry. Hopefully I can edit later?

Hope you took my post as the light hearted contribution it was meant to be.

 

[eronald]

Hope you took my post as the light hearted contribution it was meant to be.

One can bird at distance if the birds are large and well fed, even if they move fast. I have used my Zeiss 8x25 to track taxiing and flying aircraft at Roissy airport, from the elevated viewing platform situated on Champ de Mars in central Paris, a reasonable distance of 30Km or so. I admit I couldn't tell the sex of the birds, but I would have liked an even wider field

Edmund