Zeiss Gavia vs Kowa 773 vs Swaro (2 Viewers)

[Peregrine Took]

I'm in the market for an 80mm-ish scope for about £1700.00. My shortlist is:

New Kowa TSN-773 25-60
New Zeiss Conquest Gavia 85 30-50
Used Swarovski ATS 80 HD 25-50

I'd prefer to buy new, but that puts the Swaro out of reach, hence that option only is for a used one.

I've read that the Zeiss has a narrow FOV, but I'm not sure that's an issue for birding at long range, although starting at 30x doesn't sound ideal. I've not read anything bad about the Kowa. And there are so many Swarovski base models that I'm not sure where the ATS stands in the hierarchy, or in comparison to the other two on my shortlist.

Your views would be appreciated.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

Question? With the Kowa TSN-883/884's reduced to only $2,499.99 shouldn't this be one in consideration as well?

 

[dwatsonbirder]

Question? With the Kowa TSN-883/884's reduced to only $2,499.99 shouldn't this be one in consideration as well?

Isn't the exchange rate for £ to $ equivalent of $1900? Quite a bit over budget, particularly with import fees on top.

 

[gr8fuldoug]

Isn't the exchange rate for £ to $ equivalent of $1900? Quite a bit over budget, particularly with import fees on top.

Not sure of the exchange rate, however, at the sale price of the TSN-883/884's it's very close to the new 77 series

 

[dwatsonbirder]

...but still $600 USD (£536.59) more than they wanted to spend!

@Peregrine Took check out Roger Vine's review of the Gavia here. There is also a (now quite old) review of the Kowa 77 here (though I don't care much for the magazine).
The ATS 80HD is a workhorse, and is still very popular today. Here is a great deal for well under your budget.

If you can, try to visit a shop which sells all three models, test them all together and buy the best sample of the one you like the most!

Alternatively if you are in the market for a Nikon ED82 for less than half your budget, drop me a PM

 

[Peregrine Took]

Question? With the Kowa TSN-883/884's reduced to only $2,499.99 shouldn't this be one in consideration as well?

No. As others have suggested, in the UK the TSN-883 is £600.00 more than the TSN-773, based on the best prices available at the time of writing.
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[Peregrine Took]

...but still $600 USD (£536.59) more than they wanted to spend!

@Peregrine Took check out Roger Vine's review of the Gavia here.

Thanks. I read that (and the other reviews you mention), but I've since had an additional question that someone might be able to answer. Given that the Gavia manufacture is outsourced, is the Vortex Razor 85mm effectively the same scope? Someone somewhere suggested it might be.

The ATS 80HD is a workhorse, and is still very popular today. Here is a great deal for well under your budget.

Thanks. I have an LCE locally. I might ask them to get this one in, so I can take a look. It'll only have 6 months warranty - should I be worried?

Alternatively if you are in the market for a Nikon ED82 for less than half your budget, drop me a PM

That's another scope I was looking at - Nikon is pretty poor in providing details of their eyepieces and compatibility. Nevertheless, PM sent!
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[henry link]

I don't think the Gavia is a successful scope for the reasons I gave in this review:

Zeiss Gavia 85 Review

I borrowed a Zeiss Gavia 85 for a couple of days last week with the idea of writing a review. Two days turned out to be too little time to get around to checking out everything, so here are the results of the tests I had time to do. The Gavia is one of several recently introduced iterations of...

www.birdforum.net

It's one of a family of similar Kamakura made scopes sold by several branders that includes the current Vortex Razor. The scope with the best optics I've seen in your price range is the Nikon Monarch ED82, which is optically one of the very best scopes currently available at any price. I reviewed it here:

Monarch 82ED, a Perfect Ten

I recently spent a pleasant few hours evaluating a scope that exceeded my expectations in nearly every way. The Nikon Monarch 82ED has been around for over 2 years now, but it doesn’t seem to have made much of an impression in the market or been much reviewed or discussed in optics forums. A...

www.birdforum.net

 

[wllmspd]

The Nikon can take Astro 1.25” eyepieces, there are posts on how to adapt it. There is a commercial swaro-1.25” adapter that APM sell and I believe that it might also fit the garvia, but I could well be wrong. Then you can have the eyepiece and field of view you want.

Peter

 

[Peregrine Took]

Thanks for all the replies folks. I've given this a bit more thought and decided against an 80-85mm scope.

I'm coming from an Opticron MM4 60 which I really liked, but was my first decent scope, with nothing to compare it with. I bought it used and it fitted my (then) budget perfectly. Now that I have more to spend - on a 'forever' scope - I think I've been getting carried away with the idea of 'bigger is better', rather than just upgrading. My revised shortlist, with prices of mint used examples currently available, is:

• Swarovski ATS 65 25-50 - mint/used £1550.00.
• Kowa TSN-773 25-60 (I know this isn't small, but it's light/compact for a circa 80mm scope and has a relatively wide FOV) - new £1700.00 / used £1500.00.
• Kowa TSN-663 20-60 - which would allow me to buy a fixed EP in addition to the zoom - total £1180.00.

I've discounted an Opticron MM4 77 and a Nikon Monarch because they don't tug at my heart strings like Swarovski and Kowa. I saw my first golden eagles (three in one go!), 30 years ago in Scotland, through a friend's Kowa and have been aspiring to one ever since. I also like Kowa's 'system' of lenses and digiscoping accessories. I don't think I need to explain why I'm also considering a Swarovski.

Any additional comments would be appreciated... most specifically:

• does anyone feel that the used Swarovski will be noticeably better optically than the 773? Or vice versa!
• does anyone think that either of the more expensive options will really be that much better than the 663... and if so, how and under what conditions?

I know it's best to find a dealer with all the options, but in the meantime I do value your comments.

Thanks again.

 

[Bill Atwood]

In the reviews I've read, optically the 773 edges out the ATS65. I've not compared them myself.

 

[Peregrine Took]

Bought a mint 12-month old Kowa TSN-773 today. I understand the price of these is going up to around £2400.00 (which is where they should be) imminently and there is no further supply from Kowa at the current price, worth bearing in mind if you want one and see one in stock.

Found a dealer that had all of the scopes I was considering. FWIW, here's my subjective 'analysis' - on a 'perfect' dull day with poor light:

• Zeiss Gavia - noticeable CA in centre of view (tree branches against a grey sky), so I dismissed it, fine tuning of the barrel focus was difficult, not very bright for such a big objective lens, I dismissed it before thinking about the width of the view.
• Opticron MM4 77 with SDLv3 - at almost half the price of the Zeiss it's a good scope, but with similarly poor control of CA in centre of view (again, tree branches against a grey sky). I was reassured that this confirmed the Kowa as an upgrade to my MM4 60.
• Swarovski ATS 65 with 25-50 - sharp to the edges and throughout the zoom range, no CA in centre, very slight green/yellow CA at edges, but not very bright, fine tuning of the barrel focus was difficult.
• Kowas TSN-663 - better control of CA than the Zeiss and Opticron, but still with some CA in centre of view, only just behind the Swaro overall.
• Kowa TSN-773 - equal to the Swarovski in sharpness throughout the range and to the edges, slightly less yellow/green CA at the edges than the Swaro (almost invisible), no CA in the centre, much brighter than the Gavia and Opticron, lighter weight than all but the 663, but still feels robustly built (as did all of them, to be fair), most immersive view of them all.

I got on fine with all of the eyepieces (no glasses).

Without too much agonising over fine details, the 773 clearly stood out from the rest, which was good because I usually have to visit an optical dealer a few times (whether for cameras, scopes or bins) before I make my mind up.

I also tried the 1.6x multiplier on the Kowa, which was amazing - even on such a dull day the light drop was minimal and it had no effect on sharpness or CAs. I might buy that some time in the future.

Thanks for the help... and thanks to The Birder's Store in Worcester.
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[Craig H]

@ Peregrine Took - Only just come across this thread so this is largely immaterial, but it might give you confidence in your purchase. I have just swapped from a Swaro ATX85 to the Kowa 773. I wanted something lighter, and didn't get on with the barrel focus - just could not get stuff in focus at all without loads of tweaking. So far, I haven't been disappointed at all in the 773 - even though I have 'dropped' from what is considered by many birders I know as one of the best scopes out there. In normal day to day viewing I struggle to notice any difference from the Swaro - this could easily be because I can focus so much easier, but I find the image bright and true to life. The only time I have found it 'wanting' was doing a gull roost where I struggled to pick out a 1st winter Caspian Gull in the last bit of daylight, when two other birders with 80mm scopes managed to last 10 mins longer. I can live with that. In a nutshell - I love it.