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Lesser Whitethroat (5 Viewers)

Margelanica

Given my unease about 'Margelanic', perhaps I should just be thankful that Shirihai et al didn't also split Caucasic, Telengitic, Jaxartic and Chuancheic Lesser Whitethroats. ;)
 
MJB said:
Ah, but then you have the argument about current pronunciation of Chinese transliterated words. Ancient names are not so controversial in that way...;)
MJB
PS Don't forget about the Mongolian part of the imputed distribution...
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So why not Mongolian Lesser Whitethroat? That would include the aforementioned Genghis Khan and is not too obscure.
 
Margelanic

andrew147 said:
If we can tolerate Kentish Plover (and Kentish Glory!) then why not Margilanic Whitethroat?
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Andrew, there are many wonderfully anachronistic established names that I'd never dream of trying to change (although Kentish Plover was once quite logical in a British context). But in terms of published literature, 'Margelanic' is only used by Shirihai et al 2001 and the online Clements/eBird checklist as far as I can see (and I suspect that 90% of birders have absolutely no idea what it's supposed to mean – unsurprising, given that it's a contrivance never used elsewhere before). So there's still a window of opportunity to find a more meaningful name in advance of any widely-recognised split (although, as I've said, I'm resigned to the fact that Margelanic will, in all probability, now stick).

PS. In contrast to 'Kentish', I challenge anyone to find a usage of 'Margelanic' (except in the context of Sylvia curruca margelanica).
 
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I don't really disagree with you Richard, but one could argue that the singularity of Margelanic is, in itself, a good reason to use it... I mean, 2 spp are named with the wonderful qualifier 'Kurrichane' which apparently has no other use in English. 'Margelanic' is at least somewhat informative.

Having said this though, if uniqueness is an important consideration, then 'Genghis Khan Whitethroat' easily wins :)
 
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Andrew, as I have said before in this thread, I do not think Margelanic is unique enough: it looks like a misspelled version of a different place, the Magellan area in South America.

Niels
 
Margelanic

andrew147 said:
'Margilanic' is at least somewhat informative.
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Well, it's true that Margelanic provides a useful link to the (rather misleading) scientific name. But I hope it doesn't start a trend of creating pseudo-English common names by simplistic truncation of the scientific name.

andrew147 said:
Having said this though, if uniqueness is an important consideration, then 'Genghis Khan Whitethroat' easily wins :)
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Would it be the first Old World tyrant species...? ;)

[Incidentally, it's very unfair that Attila has been taken for a New World tyrant genus.]
 
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Niels, yes, but, surely anyone who is familiar with both (a) whitethroats and (b) the descriptor 'Magellanic' is unlikely to assume that 'Margelanic Whitethroat' is a mis-spelt Old World Warbler/Babbler from South America?

Although, if attilas are being brought into the mix... ?
 
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There has been enough reuse of European common names in the new world that 'Magellanic Whitethroat' could have been a member of the Furnariidae or the Tyrannidae

Niels
 
andrew147 said:
If we can tolerate Kentish Plover (and Kentish Glory!) then why not Margilanic Whitethroat?
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There's no dispute on the pronunciation of 'Kentish', but for 'Margilanic/Margelanic', is the 'g' soft as in 'margin' or hard as in 'argued'?:eek!:

That surely would require some real education in the Tory "education reforms", and so are there any volunteers to persuade hormonal teenagers to speak clearly and learn how to utter and pronounce other than monosyllables?:-C
MJB
 
I have not read the article, only the abstract. That is surely the reason why I do not understand the distribution in a huge area to the east of Caspian Sea. In Shirihai et al this was inhabitated by minula ('jaxartica' and 'snigirewskii'). Obviously not any more. So if 'jaxartica' is halimodendri, then 'snigirewskii' also belongs to that clade?

I have been in the area of 'telengitica' in Russian Altai. In Shirihai et al the area is close to the border between halimodendri and 'blythi'. The birds there looked quite dark and sang definitely more like blythi than halimodendri, so I concluded that they were blythi (but no photos and have not looked at the sound recordings closely yet). And habitat was also much more like Siberia than southern Kazakhstan. But, it is not very distinctive bird, that Margilan, or whatever, Lesser Whitethroat.
 
minula/halimodendri

jalid said:
I have not read the article, only the abstract. That is surely the reason why I do not understand the distribution in a huge area to the east of Caspian Sea. In Shirihai et al this was inhabitated by minula ('jaxartica' and 'snigirewskii'). Obviously not any more. So if 'jaxartica' is halimodendri, then 'snigirewskii' also belongs to that clade?
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I was also a bit confused by this.

Shirihai et al treat both jaxartica and snigirewskii as synonyms of minula (as discussed by Olsson et al in the introduction, although Table 2 incorrectly indicates that Shirihai et al treat both as synonyms of halimodendri). However, Olsson et al conclude that the breeding range of minula is restricted to China, which seems to imply that snigirewskii is actually a synonym of halimodendri (but none could be found in searches of suitable habitat in Turkmenistan).
 
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Birding World

Spencer 2013. A Siberian Lesser Whitethroat in Dorset. Birding World 26(6): 253–255.

Sylvia curruca blythi: Weymouth, Dorset, Dec 2012 – Apr 2013 (identity confirmed by DNA analysis).
...
In addition to the breeding form curruca, several forms of Lesser Whitethroat occur in Britain, with blythi, halimodendri, margelanica and minula all known or suspected to occur with varying frequency. A new study by Olsson et al. (2013) appears to confirm that the genetic make-up of the Lesser Whitethroat complex more or less corresponds to a selection of existing named taxa: Lesser Whitethroat curruca, Siberian Lesser Whitethroat blythi, Central Asian Lesser Whitethoat halimodendri, Mongolian Lesser Whitethroat margelanica, Desert Lesser Whitethroat minula and Mountain Lesser Whitethroat althaea. The study infers a history that shows curruca and minula to be the first to have split off from the ancestral lineage, with these two then splitting from each other later. Meanwhile, the remnant group stayed united until much later, before splitting into four groups. For the listing gameplayer, this might be interpreted that the complex comprises at least three species: Lesser Whitethroat S. curruca, Desert Lesser Whitethroat S. minula and Asian Lesser Whitethroat (comprising blythi, halimodendri, margelanica & althaea). The form althaea perhaps sits uncomfortably in this scenario and could be better treated as a fourth species. Indeed, Clements (Birds of the World, 2002) recognises four species – Lesser Whitethroat S. curruca (including blythi & halimodendri, as well as caucasica, telengitica & jaxartica), 'Margelanic Whitethroat' S. margelanica, 'Hume's Whitethroat' S. althaea and 'Small Whitethroat' S. minula. Some taxonomic bodies include margelanica within the minula complex, while others have disregarded blythi completely (Parkin & Knox, The Status of Birds in Britain & Ireland, 2010, for example, conclude that this taxon is of doubtful validity), so the sands are constantly shifting. Using visual and vocal clues alone, blythi is very tricky to tell apart from curruca, yet the genetic evidence suggests that blythi is actually quite distinct and more closely related to the Central Asian group than to curruca. From a British standpoint, it could make equal sense to link blythi with curruca (on morphological grounds) or with halimodendri and margelanica (as they are all geographically 'eastern' forms). Eds.
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TiF

Richard Klim said:
Olsson, Leader, Carey, Khan, Svensson & Alström (in press). New insights into the intricate taxonomy and phylogeny of the Sylvia curruca complex. Mol Phylogenet Evol. [abstract]

Identifies six major clades (vernacular names not suggested):
  1. S c blythi – Siberian Lesser Whitethroat
  2. S c halimodendri – Steppe Lesser Whitethroat
  3. S c margelanica – Margilan Lesser Whitethroat (incl telengitica, sometimes synonymised with halimodendri)
  4. S c althaea – Hume's Lesser Whitethroat
  5. S c curruca – Lesser Whitethroat
  6. S c minula – Desert Lesser Whitethroat
[Margilan (Fergana, Uzbekistan) is not in the breeding range of margelanica. More suitable vernacular name probably needed: Chinese? Stolzmann's?...]​
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John Boyd (TiF):
www.jboyd.net/Taxo/changes.html (13 Jan 2014)
www.jboyd.net/Taxo/List23.html#sylviidae
 
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Identification...

Richard Klim said:
Olsson, Leader, Carey, Khan, Svensson & Alström (in press). New insights into the intricate taxonomy and phylogeny of the Sylvia curruca complex. Mol Phylogenet Evol. [abstract]
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Redactie Dutch Birding 2014. Naamgeving van taxa in Dutch Birding. Taxa names in Dutch Birding. Dutch Birding 36(1): 40–42.
... These genetic distances suggest that, probably, each of the six clades can be regarded as species. A paper showing the diagnosability of their sounds and plumage is currently in preparation (Paul Leader pers comm).
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according to birds of the middle east, "Desert Whitethroat, Sylvia minula" is a regular winter visitor to southern Arabia, and Andrew Whitehouse in his recent trip report saw good numbers in Oman.
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=274930

however according to Olsson et al there's no evidence the breeding range of this taxon extends further west than xinjiang.

so does anyone know which of the 6 clades the arabian visitors belong to??
i guess it's possible they are minula from western china but it strikes me as a strange direction to migrate in, but what do i know?!

cheers,
James
 
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