New Product Introduction Today From Swarovski ? (5 Viewers)

[jan van daalen]

I've seen the eye cups all the way in for increased field of view several times. A couple of years ago there was a post here with a link to a video of an outdoor writer making the same claim.

That made me curious, so I did some checking. There is a definite appearance of a wider field as eye cups are retracted. However the phenomena is an an apparent one rather than a real one. I checked this out when measuring actual fov on several binoculars. Regardless of the eye cup position, the amount of measurement units visible across the field remains the same, regardless of the eye cup position. You don't need a measuring tape. You can drive a couple of stakes in your yard, taking care to place one at the edges of the fov. With the binocular on a tripod or other steady rest, run the eye cups back and forth. The two stakes remain static in their position in the fov.

Depending on design, eyes, and ergonomics the apparent effect can be either greater or less. So if you enjoy ythe view more with a less than fully extended eye cup, by all means use it. Just be aware the fov does not change. It can certainly appear that it does and the effect can be striking. My assumption is that the black area outside the field stop decreases as the eye cup is retracted.

Well, in 2016 he observed 6852 (world record) different species of birds in 40 countries during his Big Year.
It seems to work for himB

Jan

 

[Steve C]

Well, in 2016 he observed 6852 (world record) different species of birds in 40 countries during his Big Year.
It seems to work for himB

Jan

That is an impressive feat indeed B . For the record I now use several binoculars with the eye cups partially retracted. I am also thankful for his picture showing his V-grip. I'm a couple of months out from a complete right shoulder replacement and that grip is useful as can be because I can not yet easily get my right hand up much further than what is required for that hold. It works too.

 

[jan van daalen]

That is an impressive feat indeed B . For the record I now use several binoculars with the eye cups partially retracted. I am also thankful for his picture showing his V-grip. I'm a couple of months out from a complete right shoulder replacement and that grip is useful as can be because I can not yet easily get my right hand up much further than what is required for that hold. It works too.

Ouch, a complete shoulder replacement:-C:-C
Steve, it hurts when I think about it.
Did you fell off one of your John Deeres or was it worn out work related?

Jan

 

[dalat]

Perfectly valid method to hold a binocular. The fingers extended on one hand under one barrel has the advantage of keeping that elbow down against the body and adds considerable stability to the view. Try it if you have not.

Just tried and feels good indeed, much more natural than it looks like. Have to try some more when out birding...

 

[eitanaltman]

I've also found use in techniques likes that and very much agree that relaxed is better than the "double handed captain's grip" for stability and long-term fatigue. I also like the technique of using just the index finger of the non-focusing hand on top for stability and then curling the last three fingers under the barrel to create a kind of "shelf" for them to rest on. Then the focus hand (also relaxed!) helps stabilize and aim/focus.

The principle is the same as Arjan's method in that photo, you're using your off-hand almost as a "support pole" for the binoculars to provide a stable base, without tensing the muscles of the arm (to hold the binocular barrel up) or the hand (to grip it) like if you do the two-handed full grip. You also don't have to grip as hard with the focus hand since the binocular is resting on the "pole" formed by your other arm. I've never tried the two finger "V" method but I will do something similar with the tips of 3-4 fingers... I find these methods to be especially useful for long distance scanning with a 10x where you're really trying to extract detail out of distant birds and need a longer look (where arm fatigue becomes an issue with a ~30oz bin).

 

[eitanaltman]

I'm curious if with the "V" method you also rest the side of your thumb against your chin? It looks like his thumb is right there and that would provide another point of contact to the face for better stability.

 

[Steve C]

Ouch, a complete shoulder replacement:-C:-C
Steve, it hurts when I think about it.
Did you fell off one of your John Deeres or was it worn out work related?

Jan

It started about three years ago with a torn rotator cuff. The doctor said there was too much arthritis to properly attach stuff and recommended physical therapy. That worked until the start of the Covid business when my shoulder went stiff and I basically could not move my right arm the next day. Getting exams and surgery scheduled took me two months longer than it normally would have. It is a complete reverse replacement. It changes the ball and socket positions and despite the sound it is the least recovery time for major shoulder surgery. Different joint geometry allows the deltoid to somewhat replace the rotator cuff functions. Happened by just living my life one day at a time. My original joint just wore out. The Doctor said at first I'd probably get 75% function back. That has gone to 90% prognosis now.

 

[John A Roberts]

I too have seen the hold shown in the Swarovski Tweet before e.g. Pete Dunne in ‘On Bird Watching’ recommends it as optimal for extended viewing,
see the photo and caption on page 58 of the 2nd edition
(as an aside, it would seem to be problematic under windy conditions)

And on a couple of instances when I’ve seen it in use, I made an opening comment along the lines of ‘Hey that’s an interesting way to hold your binocular’
The person would then explain that it provided better support/ less shake than a regular hold
However when they demonstrated their regular hold, it was a very distinctly elbows-out one, with the wrists not significantly under the binocular


Stephanie is of course right in saying that there is no one way to hold a binocular (though that then raises the question of what the particular shape of the NL is trying to accomplish),
and in addition with many individuals, there may be a need for accomodation due to physical restrictions e.g. the effect of Steve's rotator cuff injury

However, in most endeavours there are a variety of more or less efficient physical techniques
(and in many sports there are even elite performers who perform well in spite of - rather than because of - their technique)


So while there’s no ‘one best way’ to hold a binocular, there are a couple of obvious principles on which to build an effective and comfortable hold (and likewise a comparable stance)
At a minimum, it’s generally best to:
- minimise muscular tension, and
- maximise skeletal support
by optimising skeletal alignment

We can then optionally add to stability by refinements such as:
- the use of a brought or environmental support, and/ or
- taking a braced position, and so making a series of skeletal triangles

And for extended viewing, as I indicated a long time ago at post #456! [see point c) at: https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=4027947&postcount=456 ],
I routinely change my hand positions to minimise the effects of muscular rigidity in the hands and arms
- the body doesn’t like maintaining one position, even if only under minimal muscular tension, for an extended period


Finally, circling back to the issue of the NL’s shape and holding it, as I indicated in the above post:
- while the NL’s shape may be optimal for those who prefer the particular hold that the shape encourages
- the open bridge of the EL provides the potential for a wider variety of holds
This is especially so with the EL when it comes to maximising the distance between the front and rear hands with an asymmetric hold,
as I prefer with larger and heavier binoculars, see: https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=4030940&postcount=86


So while not trying to be proscriptive, some possibilities to consider


John

 

[Chosun Juan]

...
It's the way he uses it. Eyecups max in for max FOV and his way of stabilizing. Was with him a few days in Austria at Swaro's and this is the way he operates.

I frequently use one hand to either support from below with 2-3 fingers as Arjan is doing in that pic, or with a palm from a bit below and the fingers relaxed/open. In both cases the idea is a relaxed hand instead of clenched grip as I find I have less shake when my hand is more relaxed. I also usually have my non focusing hand further out towards the objective lens to stabilize better. I also change which hand focuses and which supports fairly freely, except on very small bins where I seem to nearly always focus with my right hand.

Couldn't use the bins with the ocular unadjusted, but fingers supporting underneath one barrel is not new, I saw Bill Oddie use it years ago and learned to copy him in my own way:

Being right-handed I usually have my right hand on focuser, forefinger on eyebrow while using middle and 3rd finger to focus; left elbow is tucked against my side and 3 or 4 fingers of left hand supporting under the left barrel of the binocular with left thumb on my cheekbone.
Depends on the size/type the bin, and the position of the focuser. I rarely hold a binocular like the Captain of a Battleship.

Perfectly valid method to hold a binocular. The fingers extended on one hand under one barrel has the advantage of keeping that elbow down against the body and adds considerable stability to the view. Try it if you have not.

There are many good ways to handhold. I find it useful to vary the hold for long viewing sessions. Some self appointed experts are prone to lecture on "the best" method but there is no one best way.

Also, the photo linked does a nice job of showing off the beautiful shape of the NL so not surprised that Swaro used it.

Stephanie

That is an impressive feat indeed B . For the record I now use several binoculars with the eye cups partially retracted. I am also thankful for his picture showing his V-grip. I'm a couple of months out from a complete right shoulder replacement and that grip is useful as can be because I can not yet easily get my right hand up much further than what is required for that hold. It works too.

I've also found use in techniques likes that and very much agree that relaxed is better than the "double handed captain's grip" for stability and long-term fatigue. I also like the technique of using just the index finger of the non-focusing hand on top for stability and then curling the last three fingers under the barrel to create a kind of "shelf" for them to rest on. Then the focus hand (also relaxed!) helps stabilize and aim/focus.

The principle is the same as Arjan's method in that photo, you're using your off-hand almost as a "support pole" for the binoculars to provide a stable base, without tensing the muscles of the arm (to hold the binocular barrel up) or the hand (to grip it) like if you do the two-handed full grip. You also don't have to grip as hard with the focus hand since the binocular is resting on the "pole" formed by your other arm. I've never tried the two finger "V" method but I will do something similar with the tips of 3-4 fingers... I find these methods to be especially useful for long distance scanning with a 10x where you're really trying to extract detail out of distant birds and need a longer look (where arm fatigue becomes an issue with a ~30oz bin).

It started about three years ago with a torn rotator cuff. The doctor said there was too much arthritis to properly attach stuff and recommended physical therapy. That worked until the start of the Covid business when my shoulder went stiff and I basically could not move my right arm the next day. Getting exams and surgery scheduled took me two months longer than it normally would have. It is a complete reverse replacement. It changes the ball and socket positions and despite the sound it is the least recovery time for major shoulder surgery. Different joint geometry allows the deltoid to somewhat replace the rotator cuff functions. Happened by just living my life one day at a time. My original joint just wore out. The Doctor said at first I'd probably get 75% function back. That has gone to 90% prognosis now.

I too have seen the hold shown in the Swarovski Tweet before e.g. Pete Dunne in ‘On Bird Watching’ recommends it as optimal for extended viewing,
see the photo and caption on page 58 of the 2nd edition
(as an aside, it would seem to be problematic under windy conditions)

And on a couple of instances when I’ve seen it in use, I made an opening comment along the lines of ‘Hey that’s an interesting way to hold your binocular’
The person would then explain that it provided better support/ less shake than a regular hold
However when they demonstrated their regular hold, it was a very distinctly elbows-out one, with the wrists not significantly under the binocular


Stephanie is of course right in saying that there is no one way to hold a binocular (though that then raises the question of what the particular shape of the NL is trying to accomplish),
and in addition with many individuals, there may need to be accomodation for physical restrictions e.g. the effect of Steve's rotator cuff injury

However, in most endeavours there are a variety of more or less efficient physical techniques
(and in many sports there are even elite performers who perform well in spite of - rather than because of - their technique)


So while there’s no ‘one way’ to hold a binocular, there’s a couple of obvious principles on which to build an effective and comfortable hold (and likewise a comparable stance)
At a minimum, it’s generally best to:
- minimise muscular tension, and
- maximise skeletal support
by optimising skeletal alignment

We can then optionally add to stability by refinements such as:
- the use of a brought or environmental support, and/ or
- taking a braced position, and so making a series of skeletal triangles

And for extended viewing, as I indicated a long time ago at post #456! ( https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=4027947&postcount=456 ),
I routinely change my hand positions to minimise the effects of muscular rigidity in the hands and arms
- the body doesn’t like maintaining one position, even if only under minimal muscular tension, for an extended period....

Oddly enough, I use a type of this fingertip support (Biological Tripod ! from time to time too.

Mainly on my right hand for the reasons Stephanie said - it allows me to tuck the elbow firmly into the body for more support. Also as John and others have said, it is as a change up grip when my shoulder becomes fatigued from my regular grip - the 'Scrub Python Stranglehold' ! with my open frame bins, which is super stable.

This becomes a bit of a necessity courtesy of a broken and dislocated shoulder 10 years ago which never fully recovered - it seems to have reached stasis at 95% movement, 50% feeling for the whole arm and hand, and about the strength of a 3 year old girl ......

Steve - Ouch ! Even though you are not forgiven for your behaviour in the Nikon thread I started, I can empathize with this.

My right shoulder issues came courtesy of that broken and dislocated shoulder when I fell 10ft off a ladder while putting up a hollow for a Grey Shrike-Thrush. The poor youngster was just about pecked to death by a dozen Noisy Miner's that morning - how's that for karma !

As I was on the ascendcy at State level Lawn Bowls at the time, I was mad keen to get back to 100% pronto .... but it just wasn't happening. My arm wouldn't rotate up sideways (like when you put your elbow on the window sill in a vehicle) despite my diligent physio (elected not to have surgery). It was like it was welded steel. In the end I just got the sh*ts with it, chucked my anti-inflammatory pills (which were making me crook as a dog in the guts), and gave up physio for a month. Then one day it went ckckckckckckckckckck and started moving - a bit.

Long story short I was able to get back to State level bowls, and I haven't even thought about my shoulder for the last 2 years. However that is not by a method I'd recommend - 2 ruptured lumbar discs ! :eek!:

Good luck with it :t:







Chosun :gh:

 

[Dennis Mau]

Chosun:gh:. You must have a LOT of spare time down under in quarantine! I almost thought Brock was back.:king:

 

[Steve C]

...
Steve - Ouch ! Even though you are not forgiven for your behaviour in the Nikon thread I started, I can empathize with this.

...

Chosun :gh:

Well you aren't forgiven either. However I'm over it B

 

[NDhunter]

It started about three years ago with a torn rotator cuff. The doctor said there was too much arthritis to properly attach stuff and recommended physical therapy. That worked until the start of the Covid business when my shoulder went stiff and I basically could not move my right arm the next day. Getting exams and surgery scheduled took me two months longer than it normally would have. It is a complete reverse replacement. It changes the ball and socket positions and despite the sound it is the least recovery time for major shoulder surgery. Different joint geometry allows the deltoid to somewhat replace the rotator cuff functions. Happened by just living my life one day at a time. My original joint just wore out. The Doctor said at first I'd probably get 75% function back. That has gone to 90% prognosis now.

Steve:
I am also wishing you all the best with your shoulder issues. I do hope with
the down time, you can find the time and ability to get out and do some viewing.
Don't rush into getting back to work. And remember to use some of your
smaller 30mm binoculars, you know they can be used one-handed....
This may also be time to get out the tripod and mount one of your larger
binoculars or spotter.

Jerry

PS: What is this all about a Nikon post, I missed it. You know I am a Nikon fanboy.......

 

[Pinewood]

It started about three years ago with a torn rotator cuff. The doctor said there was too much arthritis to properly attach stuff and recommended physical therapy. That worked until the start of the Covid business when my shoulder went stiff and I basically could not move my right arm the next day. Getting exams and surgery scheduled took me two months longer than it normally would have. It is a complete reverse replacement. It changes the ball and socket positions and despite the sound it is the least recovery time for major shoulder surgery. Different joint geometry allows the deltoid to somewhat replace the rotator cuff functions. Happened by just living my life one day at a time. My original joint just wore out. The Doctor said at first I'd probably get 75% function back. That has gone to 90% prognosis now.

Hello Steve,

I am not a fan of that Austrian brand, so I did not notice this post, until now.

I hope that you may have a useful and a productive recovery. You may still need Stay safe, more physical therapy but keep at it.

Stay safe,
Arthur :t:

 

[Steve C]

Chosun, Jerry, Jan, Arthur

Thanks for the thoughts. I appreciate it. However I did not intend to get into a discussion of medical issues. But I'm still glad Arjen's photo with his hold was posted. That is a thanks to John.

 

[John A Roberts]

My intention in post #923, in showing Arjan Dwarshuis holding the narrow waisted NL - while using the fully extended fingers of one hand to support it -
was of course ironic

However, I was surprised that some seemed unaware of what’s a reasonably common hold
Besides the example in Pete Dunne's book, it’s currently featured on the main websites of both Zeiss and Swarovski:
- Richard Porter with the SF32 at: https://www.zeiss.com/consumer-products/us/home/website/nature-observation/more-discoveries.html (see about 1/3 of the way down the page, and it's repeatedly shown in the attached video)
- someone with the NL at: https://www.swarovskioptik.com/hunting/nl-pure-c20011201/nl-pure-8x42-p5598795 (click through the stream of NL images at the top of the page)

And other examples include:
- Steve Dudley at: http://lesvosbirding.com/2016/05/30/what-i-think-about-my-new-swarovski-binoculars/
- Jasper Wehrmann at: https://www.batumiraptorcount.org/news/2017/3/review-of-swarovski-optiks-new-fieldpro-package
both with Swarovski EL SV's

- - - -

Another way to use extended digits for support is demonstrated in a flyer that came with a Bushnell 6x25 Compact that I purchased in the late 1970’s

The thumb contact with the face helps with both:
• the consistent indexing of the optical axes of the binoculars and the eyes, both horizontally and vertically, and

• the firm weld of the binocular to the face, which helps to minimise a cause of shake (the contact also transfers some of the weight of the binocular from the hands)

I find that the thumb on the cheek positioning is far more comfortable with the wider body of typical Porro prism binoculars, which may help explain it's lack of current use

So again an option for some to try


John

 

[Hermann]

There are many good ways to handhold. I find it useful to vary the hold for long viewing sessions. Some self appointed experts are prone to lecture on "the best" method but there is no one best way.

Quite right. There's no one true way when it comes to holding binoculars. And some people (myself included) change they way they hold binoculars depending on how whether they're tired or not, the weather conditions and so on.

What I find curious though is that only a very few people outside Finland seem to use Finnsticks. The most useful way to support binoculars when you're scanning an area.

Hermann

 

[kabsetz]

John,

Those old Bushnell photos are still very good, and offer good advice. My only quibble with them is the unnecessary spread of the elbows. It is (at least for me) much more comfortable to have my elbows hang down, and having my wrists as straight as possible. The thumbs-against-cheeckbones grip is very good, and used by surprisingly few birders.

But, whenever I can, I use a finnstick, which is much more comfortable than anything else. It does, however, require that you have eyecups that can lean against your brow/nose. With my Canon, that is no problem, and as the 10x42 L IS has a conveniently located 1/4" tripod thread under the body just waiting for a finnstick, I also do not need any cumbersome binocular mounting attachments.

Kimmo

 

[jan van daalen]

John,

Those old Bushnell photos are still very good, and offer good advice. My only quibble with them is the unnecessary spread of the elbows. It is (at least for me) much more comfortable to have my elbows hang down, and having my wrists as straight as possible. The thumbs-against-cheeckbones grip is very good, and used by surprisingly few birders.

But, whenever I can, I use a finnstick, which is much more comfortable than anything else. It does, however, require that you have eyecups that can lean against your brow/nose. With my Canon, that is no problem, and as the 10x42 L IS has a conveniently located 1/4" tripod thread under the body just waiting for a finnstick, I also do not need any cumbersome binocular mounting attachments.


Kimmo

Kimmo,

One could wonder why to use a finnstick with a Canon IS

Jan

 

[PYRTLE]

Kimmo,
One could wonder why to use a finnstick with a Canon IS
Jan

:-O:-O:-O

Because most Finnish birders feel the need to I guess.

 

[John A Roberts]

Hi both Hermann and Kimmo,

I think that many people are not aware of the variety of options possible when it comes to hand holding binoculars
Or if so, they nevertheless tend to stick with one default hold

As I’ve previously indicated, I use different holds on different binoculars e.g. Ultravid 8x20 vs various Habicht Porros vs various mid-sized roofs vs El 12x50
And in addition I routinely changes holds, both hand position and symmetry, during extended use

So not only is there no one way for all users to hold binoculars, depending on circumstances a user should employ a variety of holds

- - - -

An obvious consideration besides personal preference, is individual anatomy
e.g. in contrast to Kimmo . . .
When I compare the thumb on the cheek hold with my 8x30 SLC roof and my 8x30 Habicht Porro, the latter is more comfortable
But that’s not because my elbows are any further out (with each they are tucked equally in), but because with the extra width of the Porro, my hands are further apart
So my wrists/ forearms/ elbows are more in a vertical line, which puts less tension on my upper forearms and through my elbows

- - - -

The lack of widespread use of an additional support such as a Finnstick, is something that I too continually find somewhat surprising

For convenience, I like to distinguish between:
A) a physical brace that forms a link between the binocular and the user (e.g. a Finnstick), and
B) a physical support that rests on the ground (anything from a hiking stick or monopod, to a heavy duty tripod)

In addition, I also like to distinguish between:
i) those seperate from a binocular, and
ii) those attached to a binocular (though optionally with a quick-detachable plate)


To give some idea of possibilities, see the attached images
Some combination of cost, convenience and stability should be useful for most - at least under some circumstances
e.g. the squeegee, combined with a vertical rest such as a post, edge of wall or tree trunk, provides me with 90%+ of the capability of my EL 12x50, with a minimum of inconvenience


John



Some versions of A) i):

- a cap (modified!); low cost and dual use; unlike other choices it does not take significant weight off the arms;
see post #13 by Claudio at: https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/19434-handheld-holding-technique-to-damper-vibration/

- an inverted Swarovski Field Bag; see Dick Forsman at: http://www.dickforsman.com/2011/02/...vski-swarovision-10-x-50-swarovision-12-x-50/

- a squeegee with a shortened blade; inspired by Dick’s use of the Field Bag; minimal cost and weight and still a useable squeegee!

- a monopod attached to a neck harness; the Kohla, see post #17 at: https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/...d-binocular-shaking-on-detectable-resolution/

- a Finnstick attached to a belt; home-made, see post #93 also by Claudio at: https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/12511-nikon-8x42-venturer-lx-versus-12x50-superior-e/page-4