Bison introduced to (1 Viewer)

[Farnboro John]

Incidentally the article linked by RBA states that Longhorns and New Forest ponies are also going to be "introduced" so presumably they don't trust the Bison to do a proper job. One wonders why not.

Also, aren't all these large ungulates going to fart methane into the atmosphere like there's no tomorrow (actually as a result there won't be a tomorrow).

John

 

[Ted Y.]

This is better explained here

 

[Richard D]

If it's lower cost after transport, quarantine, hire of animals (I don't know that they aren't on the same sort of arrangement as pandas) then it's no different to getting a machine in. But if there is no end game of unfenced release for these wild animals then I think it shouldn't have started, and I definitely think that the media briefings are simply dishonest. It's not semantics, its deliberate briefing of unfacts. That ultimately will come back to bite the instigators and, for that matter, future conservation project managers who will be crippled by the reputational damage caused to the entire conservation community by these lies.

John

Incidentally the article linked by RBA states that Longhorns and New Forest ponies are also going to be "introduced" so presumably they don't trust the Bison to do a proper job. One wonders why not.

Also, aren't all these large ungulates going to fart methane into the atmosphere like there's no tomorrow (actually as a result there won't be a tomorrow).

John

Longhorns and New Forest Ponies will have different impacts on different areas of the site.

Yes methane will be produced - will the greenhouse gas emissions be worse than clearing the land with petrol chainsaws? I'd be surprised but I've no figures.

Most of the site is for the experiment is low-biodiversity non-native conifer plantation, but bordering coppice. Yes given vast sums of money you could clear the land and then plant coppice (which would still require ongoing management). It doesn't seem a bad site for such an experiment. I've no idea whether it will prove a successful low cost method of habitat generation and management, but similar schemes in Europe seem to be largely effective.

 

[Stuart Goodwin]

Incidentally the article linked by RBA states that Longhorns and New Forest ponies are also going to be "introduced" so presumably they don't trust the Bison to do a proper job. One wonders why not.

Also, aren't all these large ungulates going to fart methane into the atmosphere like there's no tomorrow (actually as a result there won't be a tomorrow).

John

Morning.

So to give contaxt. I am a Kent Wildlife Trust member. Also I grew up a couple of miles from the edge of the Blean and now live about 30 miles away.

As far as I can remember the area will be split into 3 sections. This isn’t the entire Blean area, just the southern Thornden Wood area. One with the Bison, another with cattle and horses, the third left. The purpose is to gauge what the impacts are on the habitat.

Whilst I struggle to see the benefit of bringing back Chough to the Kent coast, I can see this as an experiment to natural manage the woods. An extension of what has happened at Knepp. I regularly walk through local woods, and following reading the Knepp book, I wonder what the area would look like if large mammals where able to disturb the woodland floor.

I believe that the monies have come from the lottery. Could they have been used to do other projects? Yes.

As for the way it has been portrayed in the media. For the lay person who has little interest in natural history the debate about roaming vs fenced in won’t most likely register or be bothered about.

Have good days.

 

[Farnboro John]

Morning.

So to give contaxt. I am a Kent Wildlife Trust member. Also I grew up a couple of miles from the edge of the Blean and now live about 30 miles away.

As far as I can remember the area will be split into 3 sections. This isn’t the entire Blean area, just the southern Thornden Wood area. One with the Bison, another with cattle and horses, the third left. The purpose is to gauge what the impacts are on the habitat.

Whilst I struggle to see the benefit of bringing back Chough to the Kent coast, I can see this as an experiment to natural manage the woods. An extension of what has happened at Knepp. I regularly walk through local woods, and following reading the Knepp book, I wonder what the area would look like if large mammals where able to disturb the woodland floor.

I believe that the monies have come from the lottery. Could they have been used to do other projects? Yes.

As for the way it has been portrayed in the media. For the lay person who has little interest in natural history the debate about roaming vs fenced in won’t most likely register or be bothered about.

Have good days.

Thank you very much for the intervention and explanation. Personally I think if it is to be carried out in non-native conifer plantation then clear-felling (even with the tree carcasses left in place) would have a better long-term effect than leaving them alive, but we shall see.

Presumably the fences that keep these large animals in exclude deer that would otherwise live and browse there? MOD is using Red Deer as a management tool on Ash Ranges, were those considered? It always comes back to "why Bison" and it still looks like a vanity project.

John

 

[dantheman]

Incidentally the article linked by RBA states that Longhorns and New Forest ponies are also going to be "introduced" so presumably they don't trust the Bison to do a proper job. One wonders why not.

Also, aren't all these large ungulates going to fart methane into the atmosphere like there's no tomorrow (actually as a result there won't be a tomorrow).

John

Bison vs Cow Greenhouse Gas “Emissions”

This misleading bison-cattle comparison is making the rounds again. First, it’s important to note that methane (CH4), the gas in question here, has 23-28 times the warming potential as a gree…

mrdrscienceteacher.wordpress.com

So in the world in your head a few free-roaming Bison are going to destroy the planet, whereas (going back to previous discussions?) vast acreages of grass-fed beef cattle don't make a jot of difference to anything?

 

[Richard D]

Thank you very much for the intervention and explanation. Personally I think if it is to be carried out in non-native conifer plantation then clear-felling (even with the tree carcasses left in place) would have a better long-term effect than leaving them alive, but we shall see.

Presumably the fences that keep these large animals in exclude deer that would otherwise live and browse there? MOD is using Red Deer as a management tool on Ash Ranges, were those considered? It always comes back to "why Bison" and it still looks like a vanity project.

John

There are no wild deer in that area of Kent. A few Fallow a long distance away and separated by roads and development. East Kent has had very few deer for centuries.

Bison have been trialled with apparant success in the European regeneration projects - the experiment is building on existing projects.

 

[Farnboro John]

Bison vs Cow Greenhouse Gas “Emissions”

This misleading bison-cattle comparison is making the rounds again. First, it’s important to note that methane (CH4), the gas in question here, has 23-28 times the warming potential as a gree…

mrdrscienceteacher.wordpress.com

So in the world in your head a few free-roaming Bison are going to destroy the planet, whereas (going back to previous discussions?) vast acreages of grass-fed beef cattle don't make a jot of difference to anything?

No Dan, I'm just asking for the same rigour to be applied to conservation vanity projects that idiot vegans want to apply to my diet.

I also object very severely to openly lying about the purpose of such projects, as in not only the subject of this thread but also fenced beavers all over the place. Why not advertise it as putting in Longhorns with a bunch of ponies and a throwaway remark about making a zoo of it with Bison? Because they wanted a big media splash and weren't scrupulous about how they got it.

It's obvious that the vast prairie herds of American Bison weren't directing the planet towards destruction any more than Wildebeest striding majestically across the Serengeti. Ultimately it's not possible to increase the overall biomass of ungulates without increasing the biomass of vegetation and its entirely likely that before the emergence of industrial humans with modern firearms most places were at or near carrying capacity. So in the current atmosphere, yes, adding Longhorns, ponies and Bison to an environment hitherto devoid of them needs proper justification.

John

 

[Farnboro John]

There are no wild deer in that area of Kent. A few Fallow a long distance away and separated by roads and development. East Kent has had very few deer for centuries.

Bison have been trialled with apparant success in the European regeneration projects - the experiment is building on existing projects.

No Roe or Muntjac?

John

 

[THE_FERN]

Some thoughts:

My understanding is that cows/bison mostly burp rather than fart methane (c90%+).

I'm surprised we still don't know so much about habitat management regimes such that we're still doing experiments at scale.

Stocking densities for "wild" herbivores will be much lower than those for agricultural production.

There's a trade-off between biodiversity management and methane production (but not much of one).

If you're an NGO you need all the publicity you can get (because you're competing with lots of others for attention and you probably don't have a guaranteed income stream). It's really annoying when things get exaggerated but let's remember this.

European bison aren't much genetically different to North American iirc. V recently diverged.

Got to remember there are no aurochs etc any more (if not white park castle), so gonna have to put up with domestic equivalents if you want to replace the grazing regime.

Different herbivores have different graze regimes. It makes sense that you might use a mix (either together or in rotation)

 

[Richard D]

No Roe or Muntjac?

John

Not in that bit of Kent - none close enough to feasibly move in. Deer are very thinly spread in East Kent - more in West Kent, towards Surrey/Sussex border.

 

[dantheman]

No Dan, I'm just asking for the same rigour to be applied to conservation vanity projects that idiot vegans want to apply to my diet.

I also object very severely to openly lying about the purpose of such projects, as in not only the subject of this thread but also fenced beavers all over the place. Why not advertise it as putting in Longhorns with a bunch of ponies and a throwaway remark about making a zoo of it with Bison? Because they wanted a big media splash and weren't scrupulous about how they got it.

It's obvious that the vast prairie herds of American Bison weren't directing the planet towards destruction any more than Wildebeest striding majestically across the Serengeti. Ultimately it's not possible to increase the overall biomass of ungulates without increasing the biomass of vegetation and its entirely likely that before the emergence of industrial humans with modern firearms most places were at or near carrying capacity. So in the current atmosphere, yes, adding Longhorns, ponies and Bison to an environment hitherto devoid of them needs proper justification.

John

You can eat what you want - including free-range Bison??

It's idiots who can't think and see the bigger picture that are the problem. Asking for the same level of rigour in these two instances is a bit like asking for the same rigour to be applied to investigating, say, a world super power invading a sovereign nation like Ukraine and someone caught shoplifting in Iceland. (But it is true that the same principles can apply).

Branding all 'Conservationists' bad and the same is disingenuous*

In any case, do google further, although as The Fern points out above there are some big differences!

*(Although I admit I mentioned grass-fed beef first on this thread!)

 

[dantheman]

Also, Bison are smelly.

They might also trample some rare orchids/butterflies or small children.

 

[Farnboro John]

Some thoughts:

My understanding is that cows/bison mostly burp rather than fart methane (c90%+).

I'm surprised we still don't know so much about habitat management regimes such that we're still doing experiments at scale.

Stocking densities for "wild" herbivores will be much lower than those for agricultural production.

There's a trade-off between biodiversity management and methane production (but not much of one).

If you're an NGO you need all the publicity you can get (because you're competing with lots of others for attention and you probably don't have a guaranteed income stream). It's really annoying when things get exaggerated but let's remember this.

European bison aren't much genetically different to North American iirc. V recently diverged.

Got to remember there are no aurochs etc any more (if not white park castle), so gonna have to put up with domestic equivalents if you want to replace the grazing regime.

Different herbivores have different graze regimes. It makes sense that you might use a mix (either together or in rotation)

Its not "really annoying" its storing up trouble for later when it becomes obvious to the audience they've been had. Ask Boris Johnson.

Also see the boy who cried wolf...

John

 

[edenwatcher]

John, have you read Rebirding by Benedict MacDonald?

Rob

 

[Farnboro John]

You can eat what you want - including free-range Bison??

It's idiots who can't think and see the bigger picture that are the problem. Asking for the same level of rigour in these two instances is a bit like asking for the same rigour to be applied to investigating, say, a world super power invading a sovereign nation like Ukraine and someone caught shoplifting in Iceland. (But it is true that the same principles can apply).

Branding all 'Conservationists' bad and the same is disingenuous*

In any case, do google further, although as The Fern points out above there are some big differences!

*(Although I admit I mentioned grass-fed beef first on this thread!)

Dan: I'm not sure who you think brands all conservationists as bad and the same? I didn't, though I did have things to say about vanity projects, in which I include Rutland Ospreys and Isle of Wight eagles; where the intent is not reintroduction unfenced (as here and with fenced beavers) they are deceptions being practised on the uninformed public. Obviously there are loads of good people out there doing great work.

The public does tend to think one size fits all so its important to be honest with them because they will tar all with the same brush.

Rob: no I haven't, I don't actually buy many nature books apart from field guides. What is the executive summary?

John

 

[edenwatcher]

Rebirding really pushes the idea of ecosystem restoration and has hugely (excessively) ambitious suggestions. The first bit is horrifying in terms of setting out what has been lost from the UK but is visionary in terms of what can be achieved by rewilding and how to go about it. Use of bison for habitat restoration is one of the examples listed. It does have some of what what you might call vanity projects (think dalmatian pelican) but only as part of complete ecosystem restoration. It is also quite scathing about tiny reserves which protect single species which are "functionally" extinct. Thought provoking and well work a read.

Rob

 

[THE_FERN]

in which I include Rutland Ospreys and Isle of Wight eagles;

Out of interest, why are you against these? Do you think they're unsustainable?

 

[Farnboro John]

Out of interest, why are you against these? Do you think they're unsustainable?

No, in the case of Rutland the Ospreys were already over the English border and on the way so it was a completely redundant waste of money on a water company vanity project when they should have been concentrating on all the things they are continually being pulled up for not doing: it was in fact a typical Boris Johnson style distraction operation.

The reasons given for introducing White-tailed Eagles to the South of England and specifically the Isle of Wight include a boost to tourism (manifestly not just unnecessary but given how rammed the places are actually a bad idea) and to get them past a blocking range of guns in the borders (so surely the answer is to deal with that directly). In addition, and I think importantly, one of the facts used to keep farmers and gamekeepers in check in the Highlands and Islands where White-tailed Eagles are doing well, is that they bring in more to the local economy than any possible losses they might cause to farming/game. How many people will travel to Mull for them if they can pop down to Dorset? This project stands a chance of actually damaging a hitherto successful reintroduction by upsetting the balance of advantage to the locals in Scotland. A totally unnecessary bullet in the foot risk, incredibly short-sighted and stupid. And another vanity project. Not only that but they are incurring losses to persecution, so the South of England isn't as benign as they claimed.

Cheers

John

 

[Farnboro John]

Rebirding really pushes the idea of ecosystem restoration and has hugely (excessively) ambitious suggestions. The first bit is horrifying in terms of setting out what has been lost from the UK but is visionary in terms of what can be achieved by rewilding and how to go about it. Use of bison for habitat restoration is one of the examples listed. It does have some of what what you might call vanity projects (think dalmatian pelican) but only as part of complete ecosystem restoration. It is also quite scathing about tiny reserves which protect single species which are "functionally" extinct. Thought provoking and well work a read.

Rob

But how does it suggest rewilding is to be carried out at scale? You've only got to look at the Somerset Levels to see that scaling up makes a heck of a difference. What is necessary to enable it in a country that is too stupid to see that small country + constant immigration = no room for nature?

John