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  1. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    A good, although one-sided article, never once mentioning the true costs of continued, blanket ringing to bird populations. In view of the natural, continual changes in our avifauna, I would argue that with the advent of satellite tags, continuing to blanket ring large numbers of birds with an...
  2. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    Nobody wants to stop all ringing; as long as there are people eager and willing to pay for the privilege there is no fear of this happening in the near future. I agree with you that, there is nothing wrong with wanting to ring new species, it's a natural driver for the activity, although I see a...
  3. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    Some good interesting point's, thank you Lowellmills. Nowhere do I advocate stopping all ringing. Colin
  4. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    If you mean that I'm not easily persuaded by the repeated mantra 'that the continued blanket ringing of all species is still essential to bird conservation' then I'm guilty as charged. If indeed this is the case, then the sure way to persuade me is to list a few of the conservation successes. At...
  5. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    Hear hear, Lowellmills, someone dares to blatantly push bird welfare concerns on a ringing forum like this and expect replies! The way ornithologists treat bird's sets an example to everybody else, by ignoring avian sentience and not discussing ethical (Not Scientific) costs is a mistake. Colin...
  6. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    Are you sure it's not fun because I don't totally agree with you? If you find a thread odd, or distasteful, you don't have to engage, it will soon die if left alone. I don't deny that ringing has played an important role in our understanding, and still does with well focused studies; if you had...
  7. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    I'm sure that, at the time I was training I was encouraged to tick as many species as I could, to improve my chances of obtaining an A permit. So far I have made no mention of ethical considerations; I do think it's a little ironic that we as humans create the biggest problems for birds, not...
  8. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    OK John, (I have amended my post, using one word 'causing') Colin
  9. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    Birdforum is not a scientific journal, more a forum of opinions and ideas, a way to both let off steam and gauge the opinions of others. There is no attempt to influence real science, perhaps, in some small way, a hope of influencing others by, attempting to delouse ringing of its many...
  10. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    Jamie, whatever you think about my hysterics, I do genuinely value any comments made by yourself, and others on this thread. It is a sensitive subject, naturally it will inflame opinion on both sides of the argument, I know that I'm willing to learn from other people's views, even if it is only...
  11. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    OK, you need to keep on trapping and ringing thousands of Blue Tits every year, for as long as you can, in the process killing and injuring a percentage, with real potential for spreading fatally infectious diseases like trichonomosis, to be able to spot a trend!! What is a BTO expectable, Blue...
  12. Q

    Good or bad PR?

  13. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    How on earth do you intend to avoid the massive loss of species by applying yet more unnecessary pressure on them? As you say, with the speed of extinction soaring. The pile of data we already have, has made little difference so far! You might as well collect more data on human over population...
  14. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    I suppose the mortality would depend on the frequency of net visits, presumably you would check a net every 20-30 minutes? By necessity leaving nets unattended for most of the time, plenty of time for a predator to make a kill without trace, plus all the other numerous risks mentioned earlier in...
  15. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    By significant I mean consequential, even a tiny difference in evolutionary terms will have consequences, even a short term study that gives an advantage, no matter how small will have long term consequences. Consider a species on the imminent brink of extinction, like Spoon-Billed Sandpiper, if...
  16. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    A really good paper Ross, however they did state (Our conclusions are, however somewhat limited because of the statistical power of the study: our sample sizes at best were only sufficient to pick up effects that would change predation rates by at least 2.2%) even a 1% difference, in my view...
  17. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    Many thanks' for your reply (Can you point me to the source of these latest studies?) Colin
  18. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    I would be surprised if the had! after all, the rings would have been developed with human perception in mind, enabling us to read and report. Birds utilise a four cone type system, humans have only three functional cone types, undoubtedly giving bird's better colour discrimination, plus ability...
  19. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    A little off the subject, but while on the subject of multiple colour rings. It is reasonable to assume that, coordination between the bird and its environment is crucial to its survival, in the main, for concealment and advertisement. It's a no brainer that a cryptic colouration species with...
  20. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    It's easy to see that, as with the Penguins, different species would be affected in different ways. I can see on my own local estuary, a Greenshank wearing multiple colour rings has successfully returned to winter for the last ten years 'I can see that it can survive' but can it breed...
  21. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    It's obvious that not all species would be affected so drastically, there would be nothing left to study! But if King Penguin flipper bands reduced reproductive rate by 39% and survival rate by 16% you have to wonder, what the rate would be for small, multiple colour ringed passerines, like...
  22. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    My own suggested mortality and injury rate, is simply intended as a starting point, in the apparent absence of anything else, it has no credibility other than, the opinion of someone who has spent at least 25 years on both sides of the debate. Any further credibility to those figures can only be...
  23. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    Any credible figure for the UK could never be arrived at by, simply analysing the data from ringers own casualty self assessment forms, there would need to be at least some element of independent monitoring, failing that, dare I suggest a more realistic rate of mortality as (1 in 200) with an...
  24. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    Hi Paul, Presumably the American study you are quoting from, requested the data from the various ringing organizations, they did not directly monitor themselves, human nature being what it is, any request for that kind of data will, naturally be heavily loaded (It would be much the same as the...
  25. Q

    Good or bad PR?

    Hi Adam, Your position sounds perfectly balanced and measured, can I ask you, if a percentage for casualties, directly attributed to trapping and processing could be calculated (The threats, plus the pitfalls in obtaining a representative ratio discussed earlier in the thread) how high would it...
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