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Rare birds dead on Queen's estate (BBC News) (1 Viewer)

Here's a question I have:
Given the number of times we here of gamekeepers knocking off raptors and the fact (as I understand it) that there was a gamekeeper out there on his own as well as harry and his mate why is everyone convinced hrh did it? or even knows about it? I'd be eyeing up this other chap as my chief suspect if it were me.


Good point about the gamekeeper. Iv heard rumours locally that a local farm game keeper killed birds of prey to protect young Pheasant and Song birds. Apparently he was heard to have admitted it. Makes you wonder. Im sure most people just want the 1 with the Gun caught, whoever it may be. Blue blood, Gamekeeper or Commoner.
 
Here's a question I have:
Given the number of times we here of gamekeepers knocking off raptors and the fact (as I understand it) that there was a gamekeeper out there on his own as well as harry and his mate why is everyone convinced hrh did it? or even knows about it? I'd be eyeing up this other chap as my chief suspect if it were me.

Hi Isurus

I am not quite clear her on what you are saying here? ;)

Excuse me here, (daah me), but could you go into detail what you mean here? ;)

If the Chief suspect is there, could you elaborate on that please? Just interested in what you have to say here?

hi Mick: To kill BoP in relation to Pheasant and songbirds to be destroyed. - Gamekeeper comes to mind her as the first port of call, not good all around.

I should not be so judgemental, but it fits the bill here !!

Regards
Kathy
 
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I see that this link doesn't work any more, but it did point to a letter to the Times on Saturday by Lindsay Waddell of the National Gamekeepers Organisation.

I paraphrase, but basically it said :-

1. The shooting was seen from a long way off in poor light and the witnesses probably mis-identified 'legitimate quarry'

2. No corpses were found therefore no offence occurred.

3. The poor gamekeeper has had his reputation unfairly traduced.

I wrote a letter to the Times myself - have to wait and see whether it gets published....
 
Here's a question I have:
Given the number of times we here of gamekeepers knocking off raptors and the fact (as I understand it) that there was a gamekeeper out there on his own as well as harry and his mate why is everyone convinced hrh did it? or even knows about it? I'd be eyeing up this other chap as my chief suspect if it were me.

It's only speculation of course but...

This crime seems to have been committed with absolute disregard for any consequences

In my experience gamekeepers are not stupid.
 
I see that this link doesn't work any more, but it did point to a letter to the Times on Saturday by Lindsay Waddell of the National Gamekeepers Organisation.

I paraphrase, but basically it said :-

1. The shooting was seen from a long way off in poor light and the witnesses probably mis-identified 'legitimate quarry'

2. No corpses were found therefore no offence occurred.

3. The poor gamekeeper has had his reputation unfairly traduced.

I wrote a letter to the Times myself - have to wait and see whether it gets published....

Hi Ruby

Let us know what happens with the letter you send to the Times. :t:

Interested in knowing the response.

Hi Rozinante

It's only speculation of course but...

This crime seems to have been committed with absolute disregard for any consequences

In my experience gamekeepers are not stupid.


Exactly.. gamekeepers do know what is right and wrong. and they should abide by the rules like anyone else.

Regards
Kathy
 
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I wonder if it had been 'Joe Bloggs' normal member of the public caught shooting 2 HH's down (same way). Then they would be arrested by the Police, and questioned. Full press coverage going on from the moment go.
The local press would go to town on 'Joe Bloggs and go into all his background and dig up all the dirt on him that they can. Then he would go to Court with pictures on the news, and then fine or jail sentence would be on the agenda. Then he is named and shamed forever after.

If joe Bloggs had indeed been caught shooting down two Hen Harriers, then yes he would have been arrested. However, in case you overlooked this minor detail, as has been repeated on multiple occasions, no one was caught shooting down two Hen Harriers, that is what the problem is.

If two Hen Harriers were shot down and Joe Bloggs was in the area, but not seen to do anything and no evidence can be found, then Joe Bloggs would also walk free - even if Joe is subjected to media campaign to tar him.


What rules apply to one does not apply to another here.

Yes it does.


Laws are laws end of story.

Indeed, hence the need for evidence. It is not relevant to the present law whether we think we know who did it or not.
 
If joe Bloggs had indeed been caught shooting down two Hen Harriers, then yes he would have been arrested. However, in case you overlooked this minor detail, as has been repeated on multiple occasions, no one was caught shooting down two Hen Harriers, that is what the problem is.

If two Hen Harriers were shot down and Joe Bloggs was in the area, but not seen to do anything and no evidence can be found, then Joe Bloggs would also walk free - even if Joe is subjected to media campaign to tar him.

Yes it does.

Indeed, hence the need for evidence. It is not relevant to the present law whether we think we know who did it or not.

Hi Jos

I realise I have got stuck in the mould of thinking the worst here about what went on, and pointed the finger on how it was perceived it. It is so easy to drift into that way of thinking directly or indirectly as it stands.

As you say it is looking into all aspects of the situation, and I realise I need to analysis the situation myself, and understand the full picture here more of that myself.

Now I have thought about it, it is pure straightforward evidence that makes the law work as it does. You need to see that person commit the crime, and that will be the hardest part.

Whether it be royalty or Joe Bloggs, law is the same for everyone at the end of the day.

I think what we read puts our thinking in over-drive as well. Reading a good quality paper does help here too, or referring to the RSPB site.

Regards
Kathy
 
Suppose Harry's got to get some shooting training in as he's not allowed to got to Iraq etc? Much safer for him too as Birds cannot shoot back!
Its amazing he finds time to shoot anything the amount of time he spends Snorting coke and getting legless? Only reason he went out with Chelsey was her father organised hunting trips! Think its time we hunted the royals to extinction.
Cheers and hope they get the Ginger Winger
Brian
 
I see that this link doesn't work any more, but it did point to a letter to the Times on Saturday by Lindsay Waddell of the National Gamekeepers Organisation.

I paraphrase, but basically it said :-

1. The shooting was seen from a long way off in poor light and the witnesses probably mis-identified 'legitimate quarry'

2. No corpses were found therefore no offence occurred.

3. The poor gamekeeper has had his reputation unfairly traduced.

I wrote a letter to the Times myself - have to wait and see whether it gets published....

Interesting letter there Ruby, I would be interested in what your reply said.

As for the gamekeepers letter...

1 - most unlikely I would say. What legitimate quarry species looks like or behaves like a large raptor? I can't think of a single one.

2 - Again incorrect. No corpses exist so no evidence exists that a crime took place. If you shoot a harrier and bury the corpse you've still committed a crime, you just haven't been tried and convicted of it.

3) - There are some excellent gamekeepers. On my bird atlas patch is a small estate with successfully breeding buzzards, kestrels and sparrowhawks. The Gamekeeper's attitude is that more pheasants will die on the roads than be taken by his raptors. That said, there are also some old-style morons who treat the law with contempt. Perhaps they ought to be cleaning there own house up before whining about their public persona.
 
Interesting letter there Ruby, I would be interested in what your reply said.

As for the gamekeepers letter...

1 - most unlikely I would say. What legitimate quarry species looks like or behaves like a large raptor? I can't think of a single one.

2 - Again incorrect. No corpses exist so no evidence exists that a crime took place. If you shoot a harrier and bury the corpse you've still committed a crime, you just haven't been tried and convicted of it.

3) - There are some excellent gamekeepers. On my bird atlas patch is a small estate with successfully breeding buzzards, kestrels and sparrowhawks. The Gamekeeper's attitude is that more pheasants will die on the roads than be taken by his raptors. That said, there are also some old-style morons who treat the law with contempt. Perhaps they ought to be cleaning there own house up before whining about their public persona.

It didn't get published, but here's what I said....

"Sir,

Lindsay Waddell of the National Gamekeepers Organisation suggests that
the 2 Harriers shot over Sandringham were mis-identified 'legitimate
quarry'. Mr Waddell's members have some history of being unable to tell
the difference between a bird of prey and a duck, but anyone with the
most basic knowledge of the species would not make that mistake, nor is
there any suggestion that the 3 witnesses in this case did so.

He also states that no offence has occurred since no corpses were found,
but neglects to mention that the search did not commence until the
following day, when the police arrived to find estate staff already
on-site 'clearing up.'

Mr Waddell worries about gamekeepers' reputations, but their implication
in innumerable cases of illegal shooting and poisoning of birds of prey
over many years speaks volumes.

Presumably he has already forgotten the Sandringham gamekeeper who was
convicted of illegally killing a Tawny Owl in 2006 - or is he saying
that was really a Pheasant?"
 
This is the bit I don't understand and admitedly I have no direct knowledge of gun license laws - If you can't identify your quarry you shouldn't have a gun!

TRUE STORY - A family friends children were playing in the countryside and a shooter came to the house to suggest that it was dangerous to let kids run around when people were out hunting. The friend replied "if you don't know the difference between a 10 year old and a pheasant I suggest we go to the police station to discuss your licence!"

The point is these things should go without saying but unfortunately it's the nature of shooters that they shoot first and ask questions later. This rule shouldn't apply to a gamekeeper - he should have complete knowledge of animals he is shooting. Furthermore, why would gamekeeper be shooting 'legitimate' game when he's paid to protect it - perhaps his job should be reviewed.....
 
On last nights edition of The Duke: A Portrait of Prince Philip on ITV, he was very dismissive of the incident, talking about '...infamous incident of the Hen Harriers is suppposed to have taken place' claiming 'this underwarden or whatever reported people shooting Hen harriers' and 'absolute nonsense weren't any there anyway or no one had seen one and there had been masses of birdwatchers down here at the time and not a single one reported seeing a Marsh Harrier'. The programme can be seen here - http://www.itv.com/CatchUp/Video/default.html?ViewType=5&Filter=19375 and is within the first couple of minutes.

Gi
 
Apparently it does as English Nature and DefRA have just come up with a plan to persecute Buzzards under the pretext of protecting young Pheasants for their Hooray Henries to shoot. If that isn't a class decision (or should that be a crass decision?) I don't know what is. As more Pheasants are killed on the roads, and I hit one myself, I am expecting to be on DefRA's list next.

In the light of that I wouldn't expect too much from this case.
 
On last nights edition of The Duke: A Portrait of Prince Philip on ITV, he was very dismissive of the incident, talking about '...infamous incident of the Hen Harriers is suppposed to have taken place' claiming 'this underwarden or whatever reported people shooting Hen harriers' and 'absolute nonsense weren't any there anyway or no one had seen one and there had been masses of birdwatchers down here at the time and not a single one reported seeing a Marsh Harrier'. The programme can be seen here - http://www.itv.com/CatchUp/Video/default.html?ViewType=5&Filter=19375 and is within the first couple of minutes.

Gi

I would recommend reading the alternative view of events recorded in Mark Avery's excellent read, Fighting for Birds. There is a further mention in one of the latter chapters headed Greek Tragedy where the said Duke blanks the then Director for Conservation at the RSPB. Read into that what you will!
 
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