R.S.P.B. Opening Times (1 Viewer)

Hi,
I have got myself all worked up about R.S.P.B. Opening times and need to get it off my chest! Does anyone else agree with me that there opening times are so often quite frustrating? At Old Moor, for example, the opening times are 1 November - 31 January: Visitor Centre Open 10 am - 4 pm Gates open until dusk 1 February - 31 October: Visitor Centre Open 10 am - 5 pm Gates open until 5.30 pm. It seems to me that to not allow birders in before 10 am or after 5.30 pm is to exclude them precisely when most bird movement is going on! Even more annoying is that lately on BirdGuides website there have been quite early reports from Old Moor of rare birds—certainly before the 10 am. And sometimes very early indeed. This of course means that at least some birders, (or staff) get out on to the reserve even earlier to give them time to report their sightings and for BirdGuides to get them posted. I cite Old Moor only as an example, other R.SP.B. Reserves are often no different. Thanks for listening, feel better now!!!
Andrew-Bede

Hi Andrew

my local reserve is a mix of RSPB and Herts and Middlesex Wildlife Trust. The HMWT bit is open all the time, the RSPB bit 10-5 and locked at other times.

One problem is that the HMWT bit is prone to vandalism the RSPB bit isn't.

pduxon said:

Hi Andrew

...One problem is that the HMWT bit is prone to vandalism the RSPB bit isn't.

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Thanks for replying Pete. Get your point but is the HMWT as well staffed as the RSPB bit? I just reckon that RSPB has got it slightly wrong and perhaps they are more interested in catering for the non-birder with money to spend rather than the poverty stricken birder! It does niggle a bit, however, when some birders are getting on site at other times especially when at Old Moor there are turnstyles which could be opened for birders independent of the all-new, expensive Visitor Centre they have just opened!.

Andrew-Bede

Andrew-Bede said:

Thanks for replying Pete. Get your point but is the HMWT as well staffed as the RSPB bit? I just reckon that RSPB has got it slightly wrong and perhaps they are more interested in catering for the non-birder with money to spend rather than the poverty stricken birder! It does niggle a bit, however, when some birders are getting on site at other times especially when at Old Moor there are turnstyles which could be opened for birders independent of the all-new, expensive Visitor Centre they have just opened!.

Andrew-Bede

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Hi Andrew,

I am afraid it is the old vandalism bit especially at Old Moor but it would be worth raising this with the staff there. I am not saying this is possible at Old Moor but permits can be issued to a select few people on some occasions. In fact, we have the system in place for the smaller reserves where access is limited anyway and I know other organisations use the system for sensitive sites. No good idea will be dismissed out of hand but equally, do not assume someone must have thought of it before. There may be practical reasons why this might not work at Old Moor, although I know the place, I am not familiar with the intricacies of the reserve. It is also sometimes possible to arrange special visiting facilities as long as you plan ahead and make arrangements in plenty of time. If you don't ask, you won't get the answer.

Andrew-Bede said:

Thanks for replying Pete. Get your point but is the HMWT as well staffed as the RSPB bit? I just reckon that RSPB has got it slightly wrong and perhaps they are more interested in catering for the non-birder with money to spend rather than the poverty stricken birder! It does niggle a bit, however, when some birders are getting on site at other times especially when at Old Moor there are turnstyles which could be opened for birders independent of the all-new, expensive Visitor Centre they have just opened!.

Andrew-Bede

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the HMWT bit has no staff. The bit that got trashed was a hide.

I have often wondered the same, especially in the summer when you have lost 4 hours birding in the morning because of locked gates. I suppose it depends upon whether the reserves are there for birders or the birds... less pressure from the public the better in many areas.

Hi Ian,
Good idea, I will certainly talk to the staff there when I next visit. Generally I think Old Moor is a fantastic site and RSPB have done a good job. Being a RSPB member I am supportive of what they do but sometimes a doubt enters my mind as to what the criterium is for their development of sites. It sometimes looks to the birder that they are more interested in bringing the money in than anything else. Probably an unfounded accusation as I do realize that the educational aspect of having a good Visitor Centre is well worthwhile. Cheers, Ansdrew-Bede

I agree it's frustrating but vandalism would flourish if access was allowed 24/7. I'd rather miss a few hours birding than find the place littered with empty beer cans when I arrive. The local news has been hi-lighting various evil persuits recently such as people setting their dogs on swans and the like... for fun (???)

Fairburn Ings can be accessed at any time (although the car parks are shut) as I believe it has public rights of way throught he middle off it which the RSPB can't shut off.

Having said all this, I don't see why RSPB reserves couldn't have one special gate that's locked out of hours but RSPB members can get a key.... maybe a master key that opens the gates at each reserve... something like that? I can't see that would cause too much of a logistical problem?

Having said all this, I don't see why RSPB reserves couldn't have one special gate that's locked out of hours but RSPB members can get a key.... maybe a master key that opens the gates at each reserve... something like that?

Cost a lot but I would pay extra membership subs.

Andrew-Bede

Andrew-Bede said:

Cost a lot but I would pay extra membership subs.

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Yes I'm sure most serious birders would. You could have staggered membership... you know, "Gold Members" who get a key but shell out twice as much every year etc.

Andrew-Bede said:

Having said all this, I don't see why RSPB reserves couldn't have one special gate that's locked out of hours but RSPB members can get a key.... maybe a master key that opens the gates at each reserve... something like that?

Cost a lot but I would pay extra membership subs.

Andrew-Bede

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I was a member of Old Moor before the RSPB took over when it was owned by Barnsley Council, all members at that time could have a key to the premises but when the RSPB took over all keys were withdrawn.

The system worked well and I never understood why the RSPB withdrew the keys.

peteg said:

I was a member of Old Moor before the RSPB took over when it was owned by Barnsley Council, all members at that time could have a key to the premises but when the RSPB took over all keys were withdrawn.

The system worked well and I never understood why the RSPB withdrew the keys.

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Like I said, try suggesting it. Andy has beat me to it though with another point and that is the importance being towards the birds. The reserves are known to be managed by the RSPB but what would you be saying about society that could not stop anti-social behaviour on its reserves. I mean, you arrive at 8am to find a burnt out hide or it full of discarded needles, lager cans and stale urine. Not least the dreadful possibility of coming in one morning and finding the black swan floating upside down because it has been shot by some fool with an air rifle for fun. It is not that we want people to be excluded from the reserves at all or all our reserves would locked out of hours (Fowlmere is not for instance) but we have a responsibility to care for the birds and the facilities. I could easily see a situation where everyone would be quick to criticise if anything went wrong. Ideally, all reserves could be slightly isolated like Fowlmere but the reality is a long way from this. I can think of objections to the key idea from a basic point (A KEY GETTING INTO THE WRONG HANDS FOR INSTANCE) but it would be better to to discuss this with reserve staff.

As a gentle reminder to everyone - please do not just sound off about RSPB policy without checking first (that does not necessarily include anyone on this thread). I think there is an unfortunate tendency (and the RSPB are not the sole targets I can tell you) to go public with a grievance before checking the background. I understand the necessity for this when you feel no one is listening but not when you have not asked first. To do this means it is extremely difficult to deal with the problem by backtracking and there is always the risk of dragging in someone with an agenda. Sit back and I will tell you a sad but true tale that shows the benefit of not making assumptions.

Around two years ago there was a case of over 120 dead swans that flew into overhead power cables by the Ipswich to London mainline. This happened over a period of three months and hundred (if not thousands) of people had seen the sad sight of swans building up every day. Finally, Mr Highly-Upset of Ipsw2ich writes to the local press and says "I am appalled that the RSPCA, RSPB and National Swan Sanctuary have done nothing about all the dead swans". Suddenly in all three offices there is a collective response of "what swans?" Meanwhile, Miss Peed-Off of Surrey, and Mrs Deeply-Unamused of Herefordshire have also written in to add their voices to the outrage. Dot Beeson at the National Swan Sanctuary contacted the power company immediately and they were only too pleased to put up deflectors to end the problem but the calls kept coming. It is amazing to think of the collective behaviour that led potentially, thousands of people not to enquitre in the first place but I am sure you can appreciate what an effort it took to explain the situation once it was outed. I am afraid this probably demonstrates that the british psyche is still not tuned in to wildlife despite having one of the best records in the world for interest. How do I know about this? Because I was that boy. As soon as I knew about the problem, I phobned Dot Beeson to get the background and find out what should be done. Never assume anything!

Ian Peters said:

I can think of objections to the key idea from a basic point (A KEY GETTING INTO THE WRONG HANDS FOR INSTANCE) but it would be better to to discuss this with reserve staff.

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Mmmm...sounds good to discuss it with the reserve staff but my experience with asking for special privileges is twofold, either they say no outright saying something like ‘it is too expensive to provide keys for those who want them and where do we stop?‘ Or ‘why should you have special privileges?’ But are you hinting at what I always suspected that certain people already DO have special privileges? This, of course, is opening up the whole can of worms of ‘it is not what you know but who you know‘ scenario—far rather the gold membership idea as this would also presumably be non-specific reserve based, one-key fits all something like the AA and RAC used to do when I first joined for the telephone boxes. Oh happy days!
Andrew-Bede

Andrew-Bede said:

Mmmm...sounds good to discuss it with the reserve staff but my experience with asking for special privileges is twofold, either they say no outright saying something like ‘it is too expensive to provide keys for those who want them and where do we stop?‘ Or ‘why should you have special privileges?’ But are you hinting at what I always suspected that certain people already DO have special privileges? This, of course, is opening up the whole can of worms of ‘it is not what you know but who you know‘ scenario—far rather the gold membership idea as this would also presumably be non-specific reserve based, one-key fits all something like the AA and RAC used to do when I first joined for the telephone boxes. Oh happy days!
Andrew-Bede

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No Andrew, we must stop this line straightaway. I never said that and I never claimed you would (or should) get special privileges merely that it is better to ask before airing your grievances in public. I am sorry, that is not as terse as it inevitably sounds but just a guide. The RSPB has over 120 reserves around the country and every one is in some way unique. Never assume that what you see is all that is available. If you ask reserve staff then they can explain why a particular idea is not practical and if you have any difficulty getting answers then ask me and I will find out on your behalf. However, please be ready to accept that answers might not be what you want to hear but be assured that the problem will have been thought through. OK?

I would hope that the RSPB but birders like us at best in third place in the work they do. First place must be to the protection of the birds and environment, second place to the education of the masses and then third place to us. So if to protect the reserves or keep the few education facilities in tact (I'm including hides here) the reserve staff need to shut up early morning and late evening I think we have to support them.

I suppose if there were a *lot* more volunteers then opening hours could be extended and I do hope that regular volunteers to reserves get "special privilages" (early access etc). I would love to volunteer to support a reserve, but currently I can't make the time, thank you to all the volunteers that do.

Paul

I'd just like to add my agreement to the underlining ethic that's emerging here, the birds welfare come first... always. Afterall, that's what the RSPB is for... Protection.

I agree this is getting out of hand and not my original intention—don’t mean to accuse anyone or any organisation. Also if I was that upset at the RSPB I would cancel my membership which I have absolutely no intention of doing as I fully support the work that they do. But Paul the volunteer thing is not as simple as it sounds—bad experience with trying to volunteer in the past! I also agree with Tim that answers are not always what you want to hear. But I do also think that the idea for gold membership is worth having a serious look at. Please, Tim, believe me when I also say that I do not think it is always a bad thing to air one’s grievances, (if that is what this is) in public—good ideas can come from forums like this. By the way, for the record, I did mention to the staff at Old Moor prior to starting this thread that I thought their opening times were perhaps the best suited to birders, and got the response that it was dictated by the RSPB. Granted it was not anyone particular in authority I spoke to, probably a volunteer in the shop, but well, there you are. Feeling chastised but no hard feelings all round I hope.
Andrew-Bede

No problems Andrew, I knew your comments were not intended out of hand and the discussion has been a useful vehicle for me to air the point about talking. The RSPB is not a forbidding organisation at all and we want to know when you have a bad experience so we can get it right next time. However, I did not want anyone to think that the RSPB is not open to discussion. I did not intend to take on a chastising tone but just to let everyone know that we are here to talk (even if I did it in my usual forceful manner ). I really do mean that about contacting the Wildlife Team at The Lodge if you have a problem (ask for me if you wish).

Hi Andrew-Bede,
Please don't feel chastised, this is the place for friendly discussions with like-minded souls. If we can't discuss what bothers us here then where?

I think some good points came out of this, in particular the idea of Gold RSPB Membership. I'd pay extra to get extra access to reserves or other extra benefits (maybe priority on RSPB events like the guided reserve walks?).

What was the problem with the volunteering? I've never had the time available so I've never tried to get started.
Paul

OK Tim, no problem. Any chance of looking deeper into the Gold Membership idea? Could be a winner especially, as Paul says, with other benefits added on.
Paul, I don’t want to go into the volunteering thing—water under the bridge—but it didn’t work out due to an administration fowl up.
Andrew-Bede