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Manu Expeditions, Cusco, Peru (1 Viewer)

Sure its a valid point of view and yet the customer has the choice of accepting the terms of a non-refundable deposit or not at inception in fact no funds were deemed refundable under law but we choose to do what was right and return the balance despite hotels and lodges not returning to us. I think the demeanor of the customer is of importance if a person cannot write a concise communication without insults where are we becoming ? Even you sir had to use an insult in your post but I see what you are saying.

Well that's then shitty business from the hotels and lodges and thus you are just possibly a victim of "second hand shittiness" so to speak. Maybe it's an insulting term, but to me this idea that when something like this happens, the customer is to bear the financial burden, is not acceptable - but I see how this is a problem beyond your company in itself. On one hand, this makes blaming it in your company unfair, on the other hand, by accepting to work with hotels and lodges who act like that, you facilitate the problem.

And people wonder, why I want to have nothing to do with this kind of tourism business. Yes, I have said what Britseye quoted and this kinds if situations only reinforce my view that the current state if worldwide nature tourism is utterly broken.
 
Well stated, Barry.

I enjoyed our tour to Trinidad & Guyana a few years ago, so it's a shame to see Manu folding up shop. But I'm sure you'll enjoy not having to deal with all of us clients.

Enjoy your retirement.

Thanks Jeff - that was a good trip! Closing is a thing that had been in my mind for a few years but others will take our place I am sure in the future. This darn virus was just the final straw and an excuse for us to do what we had been putting off for several years. I have been offered a consultancy job with an outdoors company wanting to break into birding tours and I might do that part time in 2021 but birding and education is my main focus now and getting those articles written I have been putting off !! I can't see the Birdtour business being viable until 2021 and it will put many companies under pressure but for us it was the final straw. We were planning to close end of 2021. God bless all in these times of plague and lets hope we all come through it well - however I just found out a Peru birding pioneer Wim ten Have who founded Tanager Tours sadly passed away yesterday.
 
Well that's then shitty business from the hotels and lodges and thus you are just possibly a victim of "second hand shittiness" so to speak. Maybe it's an insulting term, but to me this idea that when something like this happens, the customer is to bear the financial burden, is not acceptable - but I see how this is a problem beyond your company in itself. On one hand, this makes blaming it in your company unfair, on the other hand, by accepting to work with hotels and lodges who act like that, you facilitate the problem.

And people wonder, why I want to have nothing to do with this kind of tourism business. Yes, I have said what Britseye quoted and this kinds if situations only reinforce my view that the current state if worldwide nature tourism is utterly broken.

Thanks for taking the time to reply - I think one of the great problems is that third world nature tour and in fact any tour company are not monitored properly by the relevant governments - many are informal and work under the radar and there are no control or checks in place. However I do appreciate your comments and do see what your point is
 
And people wonder, why I want to have nothing to do with this kind of tourism business. Yes, I have said what Britseye quoted and this kinds if situations only reinforce my view that the current state if worldwide nature tourism is utterly broken.

It's not all about you though, is it, Opisska? ;) Since some older and wiser heads have tried to point this out to you both here and elsewhere, let me reinforce that point by first of all establishing some common ground. You will be hard-pressed to find a more cheapskate birder anywhere in the World than me ;) It's not so much a matter of pride, it's just having started at a very young age, on the whole I'd rather not see a bird on my travels that's been pointed out to me by someone else, unless it happens to be a close friend I've embarked upon the trip/expedition with. I can think of three occasions, I've had no choice other than to pay a small amount of money to see something specific - once in Israel, once in Ecuador, and once in Sulawesi - but since I've also been paid twice myself to take a couple of little old ladies around birding in the States, my overall net spending on bird guides the World over is pretty much nil.

HOWEVER. On a journey through life, depending one how one is treat by parents and educators in our early years, one gradually becomes aware of the fact that the World doesn't always revolve around US and we learn to adapt our points of view accordingly. Many people who start birdwatching late in life are very grateful to have others point birds out to them and are prepared to pay for that service. Some who've been birding from an early age still harbour desires for a decent World list of birds as they grow older, but they take on the responsibilities of a job and/or a family, and find they no longer have the time to do the homework required t get them to see the birds they want to see. They have only a short time available for holidays and they are happy to fork out for someone else to take them around and show them what's what.

In short, win-win situations develop whereby market forces come into play and businesses develop around such mutual needs for guides and travel services. If your life experience consists only in being a physics teacher and have a guaranteed, consistent wage in that field, I would respectfully suggest you may correspondingly lack an understanding of the vicissitudes inherent in a less stable occupation such as the tourism industry in general, and, as in this instance, bird guiding in particular. That doesn't necessarily make you a 'terrible person' it just makes you an ignorant one - and I'm not using the word ignorant in its pejorative form, I'm just using it in the sense that maybe you lack experience in that arena, that's all.

Now consider your experience as a First World traveller in a Third World country. Are you really so smug/naive to think that you having the luxury to ponce around with a few hundred spare quid in your pocket to be able to visit someone else's country far, far away and then deny them the right to somehow be able to wrest a small fraction of that off you in order to be able to perform a service that will make your life happier and maybe allow them and their family to eat for the week? Please don't let's get bogged down in the good guides v bad guides discussion and deflect from the general point I'm trying to make here. I've just come back from three months in the Gambia where this discussion is very much at the fore and you and I can talk about that some other time some other place, if you really want to. ;) Whether you are going to use guides or not is entirely up to you, but at least have the decency in public to appreciate that other people have the right to earn a living in a way that they best see fit, and others have the right to negotiate the price with them/take their business elsewhere as THEY see fit. It's really NONE of OUR business.

NOW, finally, if you are still looking for a way of birding around the World on the cheap, let me give you two addresses of organisations I've been affiliated with for the past twelve years that will allow you to some extent to be able to do that, although if,as you're posts suggest, you are still seeing the World through the eyes of a twitcher, you might not see them as an opportunity to 'put something back' like I do. They are largely volunteer organisations (hence why I have no spare money to pay for bird guides :-C) and they suit me because I am first and foremost a patch birder, a birdwatcher, and an all-round naturalist, rather than the twitcher and lister that I once was (I've still seen almost twice as many birds in the World as you have though 3:)).

wwoof.net and workaway.info

These are just two. I have heard of others but I can't remember their names. They'll cost you EUR 20-30 to join for a year and the list of opportunities is mind-boggling. You can volunteer next to the Mountain Gorillas in Uganda, if you want to. Now, these organisations expect give and take, so you will get out of them as much as you want to put into them. As I say, they might not be for you for the stage of life that you are at, you may still be locked in to the need for security of having a regular job, for example, or be attached to some nebulous idea of a 'Western Palearctic List', but in the spirit of fraternity from one 'low-rent birder' to another, I recommend you have a little look at them and see if they give you any ideas. Even if its only for the six weeks of your 'summer holidays', maybe not this year but the next, you may find your learning trajectory becomes much greater if you give it a go, and you can spend lots of time birding in a new environment at the same time.

Best of luck
Graham
 
You know, I am here actually taking a stance in favor of a guy who ordered a guide service, so the whole preaching part about how those people should be able to do so is a bit redundant, don't you think? :)

You're conflating several points here though. Yes, I personally don't like to be guided around and I have issues with places where someone waits with their hand extended and a barrier saying that if I don't fork out money (and let myself be annoyed by their continued presence), I can't go to the local nature - but you alone brought this topic into this thread by quoting me to that effect and this is not the key problem here.

Yes, I also can see how people do want to get the benefits of said industry. But then, I would imagine being quite upset if I did so, but then were met with business practices as described here. Mr. Walker actually has a point that a part of that is just operating in a third world country, but it is still staggering to me to see the after what he posted, you replied "well done" - if a business screws you over, you don't simply bow down and thank them. I still think that the starter of the thread has all reasons to be upset - and just noted that it is appalling that this is business as usual for the whole sector and a contributing factor to that situation is when birders don't demand things to change. Again, if I see a business publicly shaming their own customers and calling them "difficult", that's one business that's quite unlikely to see my money ever and I am quite surprised that there is a general friendly response to that kind of attitude here.

Interesting bit about the volunteering - I have never ventured into that, but I have friends who are really into that kind of thing and they traveled and volunteered and their experience was all around not great - basically any remotely interesting positions are quickly filled or you even have to pay substantial money to get them and all that was ever left for them was doing menial labor for some random farms somewhere in Africa, with no contact with any nature conservancy or anything like that. Maybe you are just better in finding your way, or your experience/skills make you more desirable, but my information on volunteering has long been shaped by those negative experiences of my friends.
 
Returning to the original point, I would like to tell about my own experience. I had book a trip to the Darien Camp with Canopy in Panama, which became impossible for me to participate in. This was because I had experienced a hurricane and due to that, my workplace had to reschedule the time where I could not be absent. I contacted canopy who said I could cancel but would lose the deposit. I could, however, chose to leave the money with them and reschedule the trip to a later time if I so chose (within 12 months).

I feel with the OP story, the one option I did not hear (probably due to the closing of the company) was the option of rescheduling to a later time. Had that been an option, I would have been happy with the reaction of the company. As it is, I can see why they did what they did, but also somewhat understand the reaction of the customer. However, and this is important: as a costumer, we also know that there is such a thing as travel insurance, and it is our choice to purchase one or not. That should have covered the loss.

Niels
 
Jan. If I knew how to break a post down and reply to each paragraph, I would, but I don't, so I shan't ;) Just one thing and I'll let you go. Why did I say 'well done' to Barry, and why are others supporting him? Notice Mr Walker doesn't post on Birdforum and has only done so on two occasions to present a very reasonable - and I stress the words very reasonable - reply to a disgruntled customer. I find that commendable. It is now up to the OP, should they so wish, to offer their response. Mr Walker explained how he went to the effort of recouping money from various lodges and refunded to his customers what he could and five out of six people understood that whilst one didn't and chose to share his grievance with the World at large. When you work in an industry that is customer-orientated, you will find that you cannot please all the people all the time, unfortunately. Every person who has ever worked in a service based industry will from time to time face difficult people who fail to see that if every one else in the room is happy and they are not, the problem might just lie with them and not the service provider? That is the real World, my friend.

Notice in my original post on this thread, I said it seemed the customer had a legitimate grievance. At the time I did not have all the facts at my disposal. I was ignorant. I like to thing, however, and this is for me to know, not you ;) I have cultivated a mind that is open enough to modify my opinion on the presentation of new information. Should the OP choose to offer their rebuttal to Mr Walker's considered response, I may change it again. Or maybe I won't. Because I'm done engaging in a debate that is really none of my business, since it doesn't affect me directly, and neither I think does it you? :t:
 
Good points opisska. I also thought the ad hominem attack on the customer was tacky. The issue is whether it was legitimate for the company to retain the $600 without providing any service; whether the customer was or was not surly is irrelevant.

Mr Walker explained how he went to the effort of recouping money from various lodges and refunded to his customers what he could and five out of six people understood that whilst one didn't and chose to share his grievance with the World at large.

Surely trying to get the money refunded was the least the company should have done. And we just have Mr. Walker's say so on what the other five people "understood;" we haven't heard from them.

However, and this is important: as a costumer, we also know that there is such a thing as travel insurance, and it is our choice to purchase one or not. That should have covered the loss.

Article on why most travel insurance doesn't cover losses related to the pandemic: https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2020/04/29/296797.htm
 
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Jan. If I knew how to break a post down and reply to each paragraph, I would, but I don't, so I shan't ;) Just one thing and I'll let you go. Why did I say 'well done' to Barry, and why are others supporting him? Notice Mr Walker doesn't post on Birdforum and has only done so on two occasions to present a very reasonable - and I stress the words very reasonable - reply to a disgruntled customer. I find that commendable. It is now up to the OP, should they so wish, to offer their response. Mr Walker explained how he went to the effort of recouping money from various lodges and refunded to his customers what he could and five out of six people understood that whilst one didn't and chose to share his grievance with the World at large. When you work in an industry that is customer-orientated, you will find that you cannot please all the people all the time, unfortunately. Every person who has ever worked in a service based industry will from time to time face difficult people who fail to see that if every one else in the room is happy and they are not, the problem might just lie with them and not the service provider? That is the real World, my friend.

Notice in my original post on this thread, I said it seemed the customer had a legitimate grievance. At the time I did not have all the facts at my disposal. I was ignorant. I like to thing, however, and this is for me to know, not you ;) I have cultivated a mind that is open enough to modify my opinion on the presentation of new information. Should the OP choose to offer their rebuttal to Mr Walker's considered response, I may change it again. Or maybe I won't. Because I'm done engaging in a debate that is really none of my business, since it doesn't affect me directly, and neither I think does it you? :t:

Non refundable deposits are a peculiarity of the hospitality, travel and tourism industry it appears.

In no other sphere of commerce, would you expect such a substantial amount of money to be witheld in the event that absolutley no part of the service is provided, especially in such circumstances and let's not lose sight of the fact that it was the provider who cancelled, not the customer.

Out of pocket expenses is one thing, that would be reasonable but how do they arrive at a standard $600?
 
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Good points opisska. I also thought the ad hominem attack on the customer was tacky. The issue is whether it was legitimate for the company to retain the $600 without providing any service; whether the customer was or was not surly is irrelevant.



Surely trying to get the money refunded was the least the company should have done. And we just have Mr. Walker's say so on what the other five people "understood;" we haven't heard from them.



Article on why most travel insurance doesn't cover losses related to the pandemic: https://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2020/04/29/296797.htm


Surely though, they are not 'losses' in the strictest term, they are products which have been paid for but not provided and as such, people should expect a refund?
 
To get thing straight: to call a customer difficult is 'ad hominem', but to call Barry a bastard or a (insert genital organ of choice) is OK?
I can imagine, if it wasn't a very well respected guide that pioneered birding in Peru and is about to stop his business, but a young guide that just started, he would have bowed, kissed the customer's toes and all would be 'right'?

The culture of the 'client is king' has led to very picky customers crawling from under their rocks and shouting out loud they should be served because money is always king. Some things in life (respect, being nice) cannot be bought or sold, especially not when dealing with those kind of customers. I firmly give Barry the benefit of doubt, both about the 600$ deposit (that wasn't mentioned by the opening poster, I ask him: why?) and about the customer being a very annoying one to work with.

When I started in consultancy, I bowed and I kissed feet. After I understood that, in order to set the level of quality at the highest possible standard, I didn't have to bow. I had to say what was best for the client, and the relation changed from being a 'slave' of the customer, to being a partner. And the few times I had a very annoying customer or one I suspected he wouldn't pay for services, I knew from the beginning. Since then, I simply refuse or ignore certain customers. I have enough work, and in the end, when I retire, I want to remember nice people. Because you forget about the work (and even the money/profit in certain projects), but you remember the people you worked with.
 
There are several regrettable points for me in this. I'm not sure how one squares these circles: no easy solutions:

1) it's difficult to make money from nature tourism. This is one of the things which underlies the money issues we're talking about. It's clear to me from my contacts in Peru that you don't become a guide if you want to get rich... (Or own a tour company either)

2) a consequence is that the whole guided experience becomes very expensive: you have to charge quite a lot just to survive. This is a turn off for the general population (both host country and visitors) and it increases the barrier to entry into nature appreciation (for birds, not helped by the fact that you need expensive things like binoculars to even see the animals)

3) another consequence is that there's less/no cash for actual nature conservation. There's no necessary direct relationship between nature conservation and nature tour companies. As long as the birds/animals are different from those in the us, UK etc. then people will continue to pay to see them: even if the fauna diminishes through extinctions. I believe a large proportion of twitchers give little or no money to conserve the things they've ticked

4) in South and Central America at least, the industry is driven by the US market. It's regrettable they only have 2 weeks' leave there: this further hikes prices and exacerbates the problem as a) clients are willing to pay (almost) anything to make the most of their limited time and b) you've a limited market (measured in client time) in which to make your cash if you're a provider

5) limited time means people are more likely to pay to be shown rather than try to find/learn things themselves. As time goes on, opportunities for going it alone are shrinking in these mega diverse areas anyway (counties are developing=habitat destroyed)

The business about deposits just reflects uncertainty in ability to deliver outcomes. I guess the two modes are either hike prices to cover defaults (and refund everything) or have the system we have. Given the above about marginal returns and uncertainty, perhaps it's not surprising the industry's gone down the non-returnable route.

Wrt this particular case, sounds like Barry did all we might expect and in fact more. If you don't like the deposits thing you're really complaining about the foundations of the industry rather than particular providers. Government might be able to address this somewhat (payment enforcement, force refunds) but good luck with that in Peru

After trying various modes, I think that I much prefer finding and identifying my own birds. I don't like traveling alone, though, because of the inevitable hassles. On balance I think the nature tourism industry is a (slightly) beneficial thing for nature conservation but I'm certain it's nothing like enough to prevent or even reduce biodiversity loss (see e.g. US, UK)
 
To get thing straight: to call a customer difficult is 'ad hominem', but to call Barry a bastard or a (insert genital organ of choice) is OK?

Of course I would not condone uncivil language directed against Mr. Walker. But you ignore an obvious distinction here: Mr. Walker's ad hominem attack was in public on a public forum; the alleged surliness from the customer was in a private communication. Which also raises another objectionable aspect of Mr. Walker's response--he posted on a public forum (alleged) excerpts from private communications to embarass Mr. Potter--it had nothing to do with the substance of the dispute and was not necessary for Mr. Walker to defend himself. I'd consider that a breach of trust.
 
If you don't like the deposits thing you're really complaining about the foundations of the industry rather than particular providers.

I disagree. First, this concerns an unforeseen and unprecedented circumstance; nothing fundamental to the travel business at all. Second, it is standard practice among tour companies to make deposits and, as the tour approaches, other payments, nonrefundable in order to protect themselves from late decisions by the customer not to participate in the tour, which, as opisska mentions, could affect their profits because they would be unable to offer the tour to someone else, and because they may not be able to secure refunds of amounts already paid to third parties. But here, there was no tour; the tour had to be canceled due to circumstances beyond the control of either party. The company didn't provide a tour, and the customer didn't receive one. While it might be reasonable, in some circumstances, for the customer to bear the expense of payments by the tour company to third parties that it cannot recoup, Mr. Walker isn't claiming his company wasn't able to secure $600 worth of refunds; instead, he is refusing to refund the $600 based on the technicality that it is described as a "nonrefundable" deposit – which a customer reasonably interprets to mean only that you can't get it refunded just because you change your mind.

In any event, what I would expect from a tour company in such circumstances is what is now stated on the Field Guides website (one of the top American tour companies): "We would like all our travelers to know that if you have booked and paid for a tour that is cancelled, we will make every effort to refund or credit your tour fee, depending on the circumstances."
 
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Our own experience of Manu Expeditions and Barry is of a company that goes (now sadly went) above and beyond the call of duty. We had a superb private trip down the Manu road along with one of their set tours to Manu, either side of a trek with another company. Manu Expeditions then rescued us when the ground agent on the trek made a hash of arranging our flights back to Lima.

Rob
 
Our own experience of Manu Expeditions and Barry is of a company that goes (now sadly went) above and beyond the call of duty. We had a superb private trip down the Manu road along with one of their set tours to Manu, either side of a trek with another company. Manu Expeditions then rescued us when the ground agent on the trek made a hash of arranging our flights back to Lima.

Rob

I'd expect nothing less when paying Silicon Valley prices in a third World country.
 
There are several regrettable points for me in this. I'm not sure how one squares these circles: no easy solutions:

1) it's difficult to make money from nature tourism. This is one of the things which underlies the money issues we're talking about. It's clear to me from my contacts in Peru that you don't become a guide if you want to get rich... (Or own a tour company either)

Many, including guides do the birding as a secondary job, Barry himself had a pub and I'll bet most of his guides do other things, I mean, what did they do pre birding?

2) a consequence is that the whole guided experience becomes very expensive: you have to charge quite a lot just to survive. This is a turn off for the general population (both host country and visitors) and it increases the barrier to entry into nature appreciation (for birds, not helped by the fact that you need expensive things like binoculars to even see the animals)

See my point one, when I see the 'it's a short season' justification for silly prices, it does leave a bitter taste. Can you imagine another business model which applies the principal of charging double on the basis that they have the rest of the year off, tell that to strawberry pickers. Agree with the rest of this point.

3) another consequence is that there's less/no cash for actual nature conservation. There's no necessary direct relationship between nature conservation and nature tour companies. As long as the birds/animals are different from those in the us, UK etc. then people will continue to pay to see them: even if the fauna diminishes through extinctions. I believe a large proportion of twitchers give little or no money to conserve the things they've ticked

This is why it's always better to use locals, cut out the middle class European or American who takes his slice off the top and pay the locals direct. It always bemuses me that when a European or other person from a developed country, sets up a business such as this in the undeveloped World, they always charge as if they're still in London or Clalifornia, costs never have any resemblance at all to the local cost of living, hence the silly prices.

4) in South and Central America at least, the industry is driven by the US market. It's regrettable they only have 2 weeks' leave there: this further hikes prices and exacerbates the problem as a) clients are willing to pay (almost) anything to make the most of their limited time and b) you've a limited market (measured in client time) in which to make your cash if you're a provider

Couldn't agree more!

5) limited time means people are more likely to pay to be shown rather than try to find/learn things themselves. As time goes on, opportunities for going it alone are shrinking in these mega diverse areas anyway (counties are developing=habitat destroyed)

Agree, I've seen first hand what the proliferation of tour companies has done for the independant, backpacking birder, not easy to do a cheap trip anymore. Locals have seen what tour companies charge and if you get a local independent, the cost for a guide will be almost the same as if you’re using a company. I’m not getting in to the moral, economic debate here, it’s been done before and as with most topics, people don’t shift from their view points.

The business about deposits just reflects uncertainty in ability to deliver outcomes. I guess the two modes are either hike prices to cover defaults (and refund everything) or have the system we have.

I agree that the provider should not be out of pocket due to a customers ‘disinclination to travel’ as it’s termed in insurance, in force majeur situations though where a customer simply cannot do a tour, receipts for out of pocket costs could be shown and charged accordingly. I still haven't seen such for the seemingly random $600 dollars here.

Why wouldn't the tour provider, reasonably be expected to have their own insurance to cover such eventualities.

Given the above about marginal returns and uncertainty, perhaps it's not surprising the industry's gone down the non-returnable route.

Wrt this particular case, sounds like Barry did all we might expect and in fact more. If you don't like the deposits thing you're really complaining about the foundations of the industry rather than particular providers. Government might be able to address this somewhat (payment enforcement, force refunds) but good luck with that in Peru.

I actually think that Barry has gone down the ‘I’m retiring so give give a damn’ root. I’m sure he’d have thought better of criticising the character of a punter on a public forum if he were still trading?

After trying various modes, I think that I much prefer finding and identifying my own birds. I don't like traveling alone, though, because of the inevitable hassles. On balance I think the nature tourism industry is a (slightly) beneficial thing for nature conservation but I'm certain it's nothing like enough to prevent or even reduce biodiversity loss (see e.g. US, UK)

Some companies do support conservation and it's often a prominent sales hook in their blurb but, they do it by charging customers more, note the usual wording which goes something like 'you'll be helping to save the Honduran Pygmy Ditch Dweller B :)
 
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