Prague Treecreeper ID (1 Viewer)

Neil Grubb · Nov 19, 2004

This treecreeper was photographed this week in the woods below the castle in Prague. I can't decide (using the guidance from the Collins Bird Guide) whether this is a short-toed treecreeper or just a treecreeper. (I didn't hear it call and I understand the calls are quite distinct between the two.) Can anyone help ?

M Cowming · Nov 19, 2004

Hi Neil,

It's a tough one. I have seen a Short-toed this year in Germany but my attention was drawn to the bird as I heard it call before seeing it. The comparison drawn between its call and that of a Coal Tit are very apt from what I can remember.
I even got a photo of the bird I saw and looking at that, I could never safely distinguish between the two so.....
Unless your an "expert" or in an area known only to hold Short-toed's, I think it's always hard to safely ID one without the call. Maybe someone else can offer an extra dimension as regards safe ID features.

Regards,

Jane Turner · Nov 19, 2004

I'm pretty sure this is a Treecreeper.. the only feature I find useful is the wing bar... it has a step in it which is pretty consistent for Tree creeper... will assemble a montage!

Ghostly Vision · Nov 19, 2004

Hi Neil

This is a common Treecreeper, as evinced by the following features visible in the photo:

1 The pale spot n the fourth primary is always prominent on Common Treecreeper. On your photo, this is the tiny one nearest the outer edge of the wing
2 The general whitish underparts; on Short-toed, the flanks normally contrast with a whiter chin
3 The primary spacing appears to indicate Short-toed, however - the spacing between the inner ones is not even, and they don't have the pale extending to the inner edge.
4 The stepped pale band across the primaries is a good first indicator of Common.

If you have other photos, there is another clincher - the pattern on the alula - pale tipped in common, but also with a pale outer edge in Short-toed. In addition, with such a clear view of the hind toe, there is a calculation you can use (assuming you can measure bill length acurately) the hind claw length >0.14 x bill length +5.6 in Common and <0.14 x bill length + 5.6 in Short-toed.

However, you'll probably not be able to do this last one!!!

Hope this helps

Sean

Jane Turner · Nov 19, 2004

Here are some wing-bars... I should have said that the wing bar is the feature I can remember in the field when faced with a Treecreeper!

HH75 · Nov 19, 2004

Hi all,
Jane, I agree with you on the wingbar: it was the first feature that I looked for on the photo, and have to say that I think that it is a Treecreeper also based on this.
Sean: impressive! Have seen very few Short-toeds, and as a result I find it difficult to remember the finer details: can remember far more about the 'micro-features' that seperate many Reed and Marsh Warblers after getting good views of one of the latter this autumn.
Harry

Ghostly Vision · Nov 19, 2004

Harry Hussey said:
Hi all,
Jane, I agree with you on the wingbar: it was the first feature that I looked for on the photo, and have to say that I think that it is a Treecreeper also based on this.
Sean: impressive! Have seen very few Short-toeds, and as a result I find it difficult to remember the finer details: can remember far more about the 'micro-features' that seperate many Reed and Marsh Warblers after getting good views of one of the latter this autumn.
Harry

Harry, you are so kind, but I only referred to my copy of Svensson!!!

(It was all in there already of course - the book was just for reference!!)

As with Jane and yourself, I agree the step in the primary band is the best first micro-pointer to a STTC. The call is the killer of course - not the thin high-pitched whistle of Common, but a clearly audible tit-like short call.

I do find with Short-toed, they invariably look very dull on the underparts, with a contrasting white throat. This is probably the first obvious feature which would encourage a second look at any Treecreeper.

Will be in Cork's fair City next weekend, Harry, so can you find me something around Saturday morning within walking or Bus distance? Then I'll buy you a Guinness.

Cheers

Sean

HH75 · Nov 19, 2004

Ghostly Vision said:
Harry, you are so kind, but I only referred to my copy of Svensson!!!

(It was all in there already of course - the book was just for reference!!)

Yes, of course it was....
Must get a copy of Svensson myself, waiting for the new edition.

As with Jane and yourself, I agree the step in the primary band is the best first micro-pointer to a STTC. The call is the killer of course - not the thin high-pitched whistle of Common, but a clearly audible tit-like short call.

I do find with Short-toed, they invariably look very dull on the underparts, with a contrasting white throat. This is probably the first obvious feature which would encourage a second look at any Treecreeper.

It's been ages since I've seen STTC, and the species is a most unlikely vagrant this far from the breeding grounds (can't imagine that they like crossing water), but always look hard at any Treecreeper that I see (if only to build up experience of the 'micro-features'), and the wingbar is the first thing that I look for. Call, as you say, settles everything!

Will be in Cork's fair City next weekend, Harry, so can you find me something around Saturday morning within walking or Bus distance? Then I'll buy you a Guinness.

I will certainly try, but I don't usually drink alcohol, and certainly not Guinness (Murphy's is the stout of choice of a Corkman, but I don't like stout)!

Harry

Ghostly Vision · Nov 19, 2004

[I don't usually drink alcohol, and certainly not Guinness (Murphy's is the stout of choice of a Corkman, but I don't like stout)!

What a terrible mistake - don't tell all the Cork Murphy's drinkers!!!

Will buy you a copy of Svensson then!

All the best

Sean

sphinx79 · Nov 19, 2004

Many of the characters mentioned in the standard literature (e.g. the step or lack of step in the wingbar) do in fact overlap between the species according to posture, individual variation, racial/clinal variation and even weather. So it's vital to base ID on a wide suite of characters. Having said that, I agree with the others - that the main characters all point towards Common.

1) Underpart colouration rather uniformly whitish without ST's usual combination of dusky flanks and belly and white throat patch
2) Primary pattern, with thin buffish edges restricted to very tip of feathers suggests Common. ST should ideally show diamond-shaped more whitish tips that extend further into the interior of each feather and also flare across the inner and outer webs, creating more of a blob rather than edge effect
3) Back claw clearly longer than front claw and, significantly, more sharply curved. ST generally has back claw roughly equal in length to front and with roughly same degree of curve
4) Fairly short bill - often longish on ST
5) Supercilium fairly well marked, especially in front of eye (though there's much variation on this score)
6) Pale wingbar with a marked step rather than smooth graduation is an indicator of Common but ST - contrary to some literature - can show a marked step too

Best wishes

Greg

Ghostly Vision · Nov 19, 2004

.JUst to re-iterate an important feature shown in the photo - the pale spot on p4 is always very small or absent on ST Treecreeper, and is far too large on the bird in the photo - a good feature to pick out on a bird in the field.

Interesting fact on the claws, Greg - wasn't aware of that!

Sean

sphinx79 · Nov 19, 2004

Hi Sean. Are you sure about the pale spot on primary 4 being SMALLER on ST? Excuse my doubt, but it's generally accepted that ST has larger pale primary spots contra Common. Ruling out Common on the basis of overly large primary spots seems rather counter-intuitive. Is it a feature used by ringers?

Neil Grubb · Nov 19, 2004

Thanks for all the responses - I have learned a lot! I guess these birds may be easier to ID from a photo than in the field, for visual ID at least.

Ghostly Vision · Nov 20, 2004

sphinx79 said:
Hi Sean. Are you sure about the pale spot on primary 4 being SMALLER on ST? Excuse my doubt, but it's generally accepted that ST has larger pale primary spots contra Common. Ruling out Common on the basis of overly large primary spots seems rather counter-intuitive. Is it a feature used by ringers?

Hi Sphinx,

According to Svensson, 1992 (most recent) edition:

"Brachydactyla: pale spot on 4th p often small or even absent

familiaris: pale spot on 4th p always prominent"

And the diagrams show clearly a pattern very similar to Neil's photo.

As you say, the i.d. needs to be based on a combination of characters, but this, along with the primary step, seems to be a good starter for in the field identifications - that's after you've noted the overall dullness of the underparts with a striking white throat (or clean white underparts).

As I am not a ringer, not sure if this is commonly used for in the hand i.d.'s, but I guess if ringers follow Svensson, then it should be a good character.

All the best

Sean

Ghostly Vision · Nov 20, 2004

..........Just re-reading your post, Sphinx, which indicated the pales primary spotS (plural), remember I refer only to the presence or absence of a plae spot on primary 4 for this helpful feature.

With regrad to the size and shape of the other spots on the primaries (I am referring to the ones that form a bar across the middle of the primaries, not the ones at the tips), I don't believe there is any difference (except the tendency to form a step in familiaris)

Sorry for the confusion

Sean

sphinx79 · Nov 20, 2004

Thanks, Sean. That makes things a lot clearer!
Best
Greg

Prague Treecreeper ID (1 Viewer)

More options

Neil Grubb

Well-known member

Attachments

M Cowming

Well-known member

Jane Turner

Well-known member

Ghostly Vision

Well-known member

Jane Turner

Well-known member

Attachments

HH75

Well-known member

Ghostly Vision

Well-known member

HH75

Well-known member

Ghostly Vision

Well-known member

sphinx79

Well-known member

Ghostly Vision

Well-known member

sphinx79

Well-known member

Neil Grubb

Well-known member

Ghostly Vision

Well-known member

Ghostly Vision

Well-known member

sphinx79

Well-known member

Similar threads

Users who are viewing this thread