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Where are all the 8x32 SF reviews? After all the speculation... (1 Viewer)

What if you took a picture of a white piece of paper and then took a picture of the same white paper through the binoculars and compared the two side by side. Wouldn't it show the green tint?

It would certainly show a green tint if the light was coming through green curtains. Just being frivolous but the colour balance of the ambient light will affect the result, as well as the settings of the camera, and if the photo shows a green tint how will this explain reports of a blue-ish or red-brownish image? Images like this have been published on Birdforum in the past and there was disagreement between members as to what they showed.

Lee
 
It would certainly show a green tint if the light was coming through green curtains. Just being frivolous but the colour balance of the ambient light will affect the result, as well as the settings of the camera, and if the photo shows a green tint how will this explain reports of a blue-ish or red-brownish image?
It is possible to overcome these difficulties as they are the same we encounter when we have to calibrate a camera, i.e. create a profile of its color rendering to fix any bias and get exact colors.

Images like this have been published on Birdforum in the past and there was disagreement between members as to what they showed.
Of this, I have no doubt.
 
It is possible to overcome these difficulties as they are the same we encounter when we have to calibrate a camera, i.e. create a profile of its color rendering to fix any bias and get exact colors.


But aren't these 'exact colours' only exact according to your vision, which may indeed be similar to the average vision or perhaps not?

I am not trying to be argumentative but since reports based on human vision have mentioned no colour cast, a green one, a yellowish one, a blueish one and another mentions a tendency towards red-brown (but not a cast), it seems that relying on human vision has its problems. And in the end any photos taken will not be reliable predictors of what other people may see.

Lee
 
But aren't these 'exact colours' only exact according to your vision, which may indeed be similar to the average vision or perhaps not?
No, I'm talking about calibration of a camera with a spectrophotometer and then measuring the pictures of something shot through the binoculars.

I am not trying to be argumentative
No problem on my side: we are just talking about something we are interested in.

but since reports based on human vision have mentioned no colour cast, a green one, a yellowish one, a blueish one and another mentions a tendency towards red-brown (but not a cast), it seems that relying on human vision has its problems.
Indeed. Human vision can vary and in the 1930s, one defined some "color spaces" based on its average.

And in the end any photos taken will not be reliable predictors of what other people may see.
Indeed but one can know if a optical instrument is really yellowish or blueis or whatever with no human eye involved in the process.
It will not stop people from seing what they are seing though.

Let me show an example:
First I shoot a white piece of paper and I ask the camera to use it as a white balance. All subsequent pictures will keep this reference as "pure white".
Then I shoot through the Swaro Pure NL 8x42 and the Zeiss SF 8x32. The exposure is the same. Pictures are in this order: no binocular, Swaro, Zeiss.
And I compare the 3 pictures and measure the white in the Lab color space.
As expected, the original is a=0, b=0 meaning pure white.
Swaro is a=-1 b=3 meaning just a tiny bit of green (-1) and slightly more yellow (+3)
Zeiss is a=-2 b=6: the tint is the same as the Swaro but bigger.

If you look at the chromatic wheel, you will see that a bit the the left and more up means a brown/yellow tint and someone may see some green.
 

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As Lee mentioned, photographing binocular color bias has been going on here since 2009.

https://www.birdforum.net/showpost.php?p=1381863&postcount=1

These days I use only one photo of the binocular placed in front of the white paper and make two crops of the photo; one of a clear area of the paper as photographed directly and the other a crop of the output of the binocular placed in front of the paper. Then I place the binocular output crop in the middle the direct paper crop in Powerpoint.

I don't think there has been much dispute about the biases shown in these tests as long as the bias is strong enough. Only binoculars that are nearly neutral seem to cause any difference of opinion. At the point where the bias shown in the photo is so small that different observers see different things I think it's reasonable to say the bias is no longer significant.

Henry
 
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I don't think there has been much dispute about the biases shown in these tests as long as the bias is strong enough. Only binoculars that are nearly neutral seem to cause any difference of opinion. At the point where the bias shown in the photo is so small that different observers see different things I think it's reasonable to say the bias is no longer significant.

Henry

Very good point.
 
These days I use only one photo of the binocular placed in front of the white paper and make two crops of the photo; one of a clear area of the paper as photographed directly and the other a crop of the output of the binocular placed in front of the paper. Then I place the binocular output crop in the middle the direct paper crop in Powerpoint.



Henry

Hi Henry,
That's a simple method but how do you decide the difference between the two crops? I'd guess that you (your eyes and cortex) are still in the loop.
Peter
 
As Lee mentioned, photographing binocular color bias has been going on here since 2009.
Thanks. I did not see that since the thread stopped being active in 2009 too. Any other comparisons?

I don't think there has been much dispute about the biases shown in these tests as long as the bias is strong enough. Only binoculars that are nearly neutral seem to cause any difference of opinion
My point exactly: it seems to be the case with the SF 8x32 since there is no consensus and this is why I was looking for an exact measure.

it doesn't matter much if it's 32 or 42, the link and photos show the color rendering for those interested
It matters is the tint is not exactly the same. Also comparing colors is not obvious, one needs to see pictures side by side with the same exposure and contrast and so one.
Our brain adjusts the eye white balance continuously, can see differences in brightness as differences in colors, is influenced by plenty of things such as the background and also, we tend to see what we think we should see.
 
It matters is the tint is not exactly the same. Also comparing colors is not obvious, one needs to see pictures side by side with the same exposure and contrast and so one.
Our brain adjusts the eye white balance continuously, can see differences in brightness as differences in colors, is influenced by plenty of things such as the background and also, we tend to see what we think we should see.[/QUOTE]

Thats what the pictures show, realistic color not subjective feeling about what we see or what we think we see.
 
Thats what the pictures show, realistic color not subjective feeling about what we see or what we think we see.

Once again, the SF 8x32 could have a different tint than the SF 8x42.
Also, you seem to think that all screens are perfectly calibrated and show correct colors.
This is not the case.

And even when using high-end well calibrated screens (i.e. the same price as an alpha 8x42), 2 different people will react differently to the same tint some seing it as green and other as yellow when it fact it is a mix of both.

Color and color perception is a science, not something we can guess from a normal screen. This is why people working with it use colorimeters, spectrometers, calibrated screens & cameras, etc.
 
it doesn't matter much if it's 32 or 42, the link and photos show the color rendering for those interested

For those specifically interested in the color rendering of the 32mm SF, I should think that it matters. Particularly given that they are different optical designs, I do not take it for granted that they will have identical color renderings.

It's still a useful comparison and a good data point, but it's not a comparison to the 32mm.
 
Once again, the SF 8x32 could have a different tint than the SF 8x42.
Also, you seem to think that all screens are perfectly calibrated and show correct colors.
This is not the case.

And even when using high-end well calibrated screens (i.e. the same price as an alpha 8x42), 2 different people will react differently to the same tint some seing it as green and other as yellow when it fact it is a mix of both.

Color and color perception is a science, not something we can guess from a normal screen. This is why people working with it use colorimeters, spectrometers, calibrated screens & cameras, etc.

I am photographer and I work with calibrated monitors and colorimeters, so thats why i believe more in reviews and photos made by authentic professionals and good reviewers than individual perception.
why do you suppose that i think that all screens are perfectly calibrated ? did you have a revelation ?
 
I am photographer and I work with calibrated monitors and colorimeters, so thats why i believe more in reviews and photos made by authentic professionals and good reviewers than individual perception.
My point that other people that look at your pictures may very well see a different tint because they do not use a calibrated monitor.

why do you suppose that i think that all screens are perfectly calibrated ? did you have a revelation ?
I do not, my point is that measurements are better than just Gretag Macbeth color charts especially for someone who is not used to them, i.e. most of the readers here.

My intent was not to diminish you or your review but just to exchange ideas.
 
Obviously English it is not our mother language and sometimes we do not express ourselves correctly, of course there are people who are very demanding with colors and others do not appreciate them so well, in photography or checking binoculars, what is true is that Zeiss has always had a slight green hue that I don't like too much, and despite that i have 5 Zeiss at home, from Jena, Classic BGAT to SF.......And few more Zeiss camera lenses.
 
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The NL colors appear more vibrant and brighter. To my eyes the SF appears more greenish. When you look at the second row and the second square from the right in the SF it is more green than the NL.


I see the same, and cleaner more luminous whites. I’d love to see the same comparison with the NLs and the HTs, as I suspect the HT will have better white fidelity and better colour vibrancy than either of the SFs, which both seem a bit warm biased.
 

I know this is the SF32 thread, and the link Globetrotter posted shows a photo comparison between the NL 8x42 and the SF 8x42, but 2 things stand out:

First, the FOV difference looks pretty insignificant in those shots, which Dries pointed out a few weeks ago, comparing NL 8x42 to SF 8x42

Second, the apparent color saturation difference looks impressive! If this example is truly accurate, that is significant. I am surprised to see there is that much of a gain to be had at these stratospheric price points, ironically, since most upgrades seem to be incremental in nature.

PM's photos also demonstrate a similar result, though less extreme. So, just comparing NL to SF, there is some corroboration with these 2 examples.

-Bill
 
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