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Zoom vs. fixed eyepieces in the real world (1 Viewer)

A

Alan Gage

Active member
So I'm new to the world of birding and living on the Iowa prairie (and one who travels a lot) I thought it would be fun to get a spotting scope. I'm trying to keep this relatively cheap but of course my budget keeps creeping up the longer I look. Locally there is very little available for me to try out in person with virtually nothing in the middle range. Either low or high with nothing in between and I haven't seen anything without a zoom lens.

Which leads me to my question about eyepieces. Coming from a strong photography background I'm well aware of the quality differences between a zoom and fixed lens and I also know there's a huge difference between a cheap zoom and an expensive zoom lens. That being said when it comes to real world usage sometimes those differences aren't so vast after all.

I've been looking at specs and reading comments about scopes and eyepieces but with my limited experience I don't know how all this actually translates to real world usage.

So, in real world usage (not USAF test charts) how noticeable is the difference between a good zoom eyepiece and a fixed eyepiece compared at the same magnification.

And how does field of view translate into the real world? Looking at the specs I see that most 30x fixed eyepieces have a larger field of view then a zoom lens at 20x. This makes it seem like a no brainer to just get the fixed 30x. But does the focal length at 20x change enough that even though the FOV is smaller it's still easier to locate a target?

While the main point of the post isn't for specific scope recommendations I'd sure be happy to hear them. Right now I'm looking at the Kowa 661 and the Meopta S1 (non APO) but am still open to most anything.

Right now I like the idea of a fixed eyepiece and I'm a little disappointed that I haven't found anyone who offers Nikon scopes without the eyepiece. But I guess if I decide to go with a zoom eyepiece Nikon would be a definite option again.

Sorry for rambling a bit.

Thanks in advance for any and all opinions,

Alan
 
Alan Gage said:
And how does field of view translate into the real world? Looking at the specs I see that most 30x fixed eyepieces have a larger field of view then a zoom lens at 20x. This makes it seem like a no brainer to just get the fixed 30x.
Click to expand...

Hi Alan. Welcome to the forum. I find the statement I quoted above rather puzzling. How could it be a "no-brainer" to get a fixed 30x when a zoom eyepiece will allow you much greater magnification to 60x? Virtually every day I go birding I encounter birds that could only be identified at such higher magnifications? Moreover, the field of view differences between a fixed eyepiece and zoom eyepiece are pretty minimal, so I would not think it should be an overriding consideration. Also, I personally do not find field of view that big of an issue with scopes. Almost all the time, I either already know the target I want to look at or simply scan for targets I do not already see. In either event, minor differences in the field of view are not going to make much difference one way or the other.

In any event, I think if you want the prettiest picture, stick with a fixed eyepiece. If you want the best birding tool, go with a zoom eyepiece. If you want a pretty picture at higher magnifications and a great birding tool, you have to spend big bucks on something like the Kowa 883 (what I use) or Swaro 80, et al..

My two cents,
Jim
 
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I love my zoom eyepiece and use it all the time having first found my birds at lower mag. Of course just as you have your target bird(s) at 60x thats when 10 people turn up from nowhere, stomp into the hide and give you the "hippy hippy shakes" down your scope!
 
I find the statement I quoted above rather puzzling. How could it be a "no-brainer" to get a fixed 30x when a zoom eyepiece will allow you much greater magnification to 60x?
Click to expand...

I guess from what I've seen of the scopes I've looked at I haven't been terribly impressed at magnifications much over 30x; and at 60x while things have been bigger it was easier to make out details at 40x.

I thought perhaps the improved quality of a fixed 30x eyepiece might wash out the benefits of a longer zoom range, perhaps not though.

But then again, I've only been looking through fairly cheap scopes (low end Nikon and Leupold). I suppose the quality of the zoom eyepieces only goes up with price.

Thanks,

Alan
 
I think you really do get what you pay for with optics Alan. Whilst there are some good mid-price ones which will suit some birders, the difference when you get to the big boys, is obvious. In my opinion anyway.
I spent many years coping with a real budget scope and eventually used some money that my father left me and treated myself to a Zeiss Diascope, 85mm with zoom eyepiece. I don't regret paying the high price because time and again I have been grateful in the field for the extra quality. I did spend a long time trying one against the other though.
 
Alan,
A zoom is a good place to start; Iowa has many wide-open areas where magnification will be desired at times. The scope is your foundation that as a rule you build on. If you get the fever, you end buying more eyepieces and eventually a larger scope. For the budget you mention, the Kowa 66 w/ zoom, Nikon 60 field w/zoom or Pentax 65 w/ zoom are some options.
Greg
 
Right now I like the idea of a fixed eyepiece and I'm a little disappointed that I haven't found anyone who offers Nikon scopes without the eyepiece. But I guess if I decide to go with a zoom eyepiece Nikon would be a definite option again.

Sorry for rambling a bit.

Thanks in advance for any and all opinions,

Alan[/QUOTE]

Hi Alan this site shows Nikon without eyepiece, don't know if you can actually buy them. Regards,Steve
http://www.bearbasin.com/gospotting.htm#nik_spot
 
Alan Gage said:
Looking at the specs I see that most 30x fixed eyepieces have a larger field of view then a zoom lens at 20x. This makes it seem like a no brainer to just get the fixed 30x.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm swimming against the prevailing current on this thread, because that's certainly my feeling. I think some of the previous posters have it the wrong way around. If you want pretty views of birds, get a zoom and use it higher magnifications relative to distance than necessary to do the business of identifying the birds. If you want to see more birds (and yet still be able to identify them, unless they are EXTREMELY far away, in which case atmospheric effects will almost always make use of powers over ~40x or so unhelpful anyway) get a fixed 30x wide angle. You'll find and ID more birds by quickly scanning marshes and other complex habitats with your scope than do those who use their binos to scan or who are continually raking their zooms back and forth. Only very rarely have I been birding with anyone, scope equipped or not, who notices/pays attention to/identifies any birds that are more distant than those that I do (more often than not, the opposite is true), so it's not as if I only pay attention to close-in birds. Anyway, a well equipped scope owner will have them all (I do--zoom, fixed 30x, 50x, 75x) and use whatever works best for them most of the time. For me, that is a 30x WA. I think most scope users are afraid of not having the power there if they should feel like they need it, kind of like car buyers want horsepower for "emergency accelerations" (whatever those are, but then I always found that my 3 cylinder Geo Metro did the job = getting from A to B, and more efficiently to boot).

--AP
 
I think your observations and intuition are excellent Alan, and I'm "swimming" with Alexis in my opinion.

I too have a long skeptical history with zooms, know the arguments pro and con, and have and do prefer fixed wide angle eyepieces of about 30X (give or take a bit) on the three spotting scopes I've owned. Wide fixed EPs usually have better eye relief to go along with their wider view also.

Good you noticed that a typical wide angle 30x is actually easier to spot with than 20X on a zoom. Also good you mention the often "empty" magnification of high power. IMO high power requires large, very high quality optics and GOOD seeing conditions to be of much value.

And while clearly many prefer 60x zooms for easing identification, color me in the "pretty view" camp. I admit I like an aesthetically pleasing view and it adds to my birding experience.

You mention you're looking at Kowa 66mm scopes. If weight is an issue (when is it not?) check out the TSN-603 (60mm) with the 30XW EP. THAT's a sweet looking combination! The scope weighs 26 oz. and has ED glass. The eyepiece has 20mm of eye relief and an apparent FOV of 72 degrees.

Oh, forgot to add: YES! It does suck that Nikon doesn't sell their scopes w/o a zoom EP.
I just went through that buying an ED50. Bad Nikon.
 
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Put me in the fixed mag camp also. I have both a zoom and a 32x for my scope and much prefer the latter for all the standard reasons: no tunnel effect, a nice wide field for scanning, a wonderfully sharp esthetically pleasing image. My scope is an expensive one with a high-quality zoom which I sometimes enjoy playing with and which (possibly & at best only very occasionally) has enabled me to see detail that I wouldn't have been able to discern at 32X. but for day-in and day-out use I find I almost always grab the fixed mag eyepiece.

Having said all this, however, modern high-end zooms can be very good--they tend to be more expensive than their fixed mag brethren--and I don't know if the photographic analogy quite holds, i.e.I think the difference in "noticeable" IQ between a good zoom and a good fix mag EP is less than the corresponding difference between a zoom camera lens and a first-class prime. Anyway, that's my nickel's worth.
 
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Yeah, I'll sail under Alexis Powell's banner too. I've had Swaro scope with 30xw and 20-60x zoom, and later Nikon ED82 scope with 30xw, 38xw, 50xw, and 25-75 zoom. In both cases (Swaro and Nikon), I've found the 30xw fixed eyepiece superior on all counts, and the times I've actually really needed higher mag to clinch an I.D, I could count on the fingers of half a hand. (Which probably means I don't get out enough). Beyond 38x or therebouts, loss of light, loss of FOV, haze etc. make the higher mag of a zoom pointless most of the time. That said, I'm no expert and I've never seen a Zeiss Diascope with zoom. Best of Luck.

P.S....I'm a big fan of the Nikon ED scopes, they're top-end quality but mid-range price, IMHO. The ED60 is highly spoken of.
 
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Hi Alan,
My two cents based on my experience. Initially, I bought a scope that was half the price of the better, more costly ones which I soon found to be inadequate for getting good pictures and ended up trading it in to get a Nikon. The improvement in the keepers were astonishing.
Your choice of scope and eyepieces should depend on whether you intend to photograph the birds you see. If all you want to do is birdwatch then any scope around 60 and up with decent brightness will do. But if you intend to take pictures then you should be looking at the more expensive and high end name brands like those that were mentioned earlier. Scopes like the Swarovski and Ziess have better glass which give brighter pictures, better contrast, truer colors and most inportantly less fringing and distortion.
 

With both the Swarovski and Leica zooms (therefore with others?), the field of view and the eye relief both drop disproportionately in the middle range. It's like travelling through an hourglass. Therefore the view at 30 or 45x is very much poorer than with the fixed-mag equivalents. Where I find the zoom useful is for wide-angle scanning or digiscoping at 20x, and close detail work at 60x (but only in bright light). If I had to choose only one of the three eyepieces I currently own, it would be the 30x.

 
Thank you all for the great responses. So much for any sort of consensus. :)

I was thinking I'd probably wait and save up some money for a higher end scope and good zoom eyepiece when this came up in the classifieds yesterday-

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=112228

It will be a start and I'll see where that gets me. Figured if in the long run it doesn't suit my needs I shouldn't lose too much reselling it.

Thanks again,

Alan
 
Very good Alan!

I have a PF80ED with the XW14 on it which yields 36X and it is amazing. I'm sure the PF65EDII will be awesome with it as well.

Send me a PM after you've had it awhile and let me know what you think.

Regards,
Kevin
 
Alan,

Another consideration, especially on the wide prairie, is that summer "heat waves" may make high power observation impossible. Keep in mind that making good use of the higher powers of a zoom requires a stable support which translates into some compromise between weight and expense, light and stable costs more than heavy and stable.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :scribe:
 
Surprise, surprise. What a great range of replies; got me thinking and doing a bit of research. Haven't changed my mind about the utility and versatility of a zoom, but I got intrigued to the point of purchase with the oft-mentioned 30xW fixed eyepiece for all of it's alleged advantages. It arrives in 3 days courtesy Eagle Optics. Long story short, like so many things in so many disciplines - there is no one simple and single solution. Thankfully we can have it all (or nearly so) with a mere two eyepieces.

I don't consider this an either/or, any longer, but a question of what's best for the task at hand. The attributes of both are amply outlined in the above posts. And the conclusions seem to me to be complimentary, neither mutually exclusive nor redundant.

As Arthur says (by the way, Arthur, thanks for the greeting on the other post),

"Happy bird watching",

Robert / Seattle
 
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Alexis Powell said:
If you want to see more birds (and yet still be able to identify them, unless they are EXTREMELY far away, in which case atmospheric effects will almost always make use of powers over ~40x or so unhelpful anyway) get a fixed 30x wide angle.
--AP
Click to expand...
I'd subscribe to that.
I am using a fixed 23x and on hot days thermal agitation of the air hampers long distance watching even at this magnification. Doubling the mag. would not help.
A good, sharp fixed eyepiece is a good starting point. Updating with a zoom is always an option.
Tom
 
Alan,

That was a very good choice!

Personally I find the image quality of all the high-end zooms completely sufficient. At high powers even the FOV is very good. The major problem is the FOV at 20x: when you zoom down, the image gets 3x smaller but the FOV only doubles. I can easily understand why so many users prefer the fixed 30x when they actually gain both power AND field-of-view compared to a zoom at 20x.

As I have said before, I think the zooms perform best at powers that the birders need/can use the least. Personally I need the versatility of the zoom, but if I am using my fixed 20xSW eyepiece, I can get a higher power by adding a 3x12 monocular/"booster" onto the eyepiece. This way the setup performs optimally at 20x and yet offers a perfectly useful 60x whenever necessary. With a 30x eyepiece a 2-2.5x booster could be even more suitable.

Best regards,

Ilkka
 
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