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Sorry to rake up wind farms again.... (1 Viewer)



What is also frightening,the government intend to change the planning laws to attempt to get round,the planning objections to these abominations.Of course there will also be a cctv camera on everyone.So if you are having a quick drag somewhat overweight with a bottle of beer in your hand ,you will be straight on the database.I wonder who polishes Mr Broon's jackboots.

POP
 
Hi Paul

I was devastated to learn of the turbines that are being built on Little Cheyne Court, Walland Marsh. This is a fantastic habitat for birds with thousands of golden plover among others wintering here. Many marsh and hen harriers, barn owls etc etc. I know this area, it is such an important site. Planning permission was granted in 2005 against the advice of various groups including RSPB (Dungeness reserve is less than 10 miles away) and the first one went up about 10 days ago. I hate to think what will happen, sliced up raptors? See these links:


http://www.countryside-jobs.com/discussion_OLD/Windfarm_evidence/Romney_Marsh.pdf

http://www.npower-renewables.com/littlecheynecourt/pdfs/lcc_montages.pdf

http://www.natwindpower.co.uk/littlecheynecourt/index.asp
 
Hi Paul

I was devastated to learn of the turbines that are being built on Little Cheyne Court, Walland Marsh. This is a fantastic habitat for birds with thousands of golden plover among others wintering here. Many marsh and hen harriers, barn owls etc etc. I know this area, it is such an important site. Planning permission was granted in 2005 against the advice of various groups including RSPB (Dungeness reserve is less than 10 miles away) and the first one went up about 10 days ago. I hate to think what will happen, sliced up raptors? See these links:


http://www.countryside-jobs.com/discussion_OLD/Windfarm_evidence/Romney_Marsh.pdf

http://www.npower-renewables.com/littlecheynecourt/pdfs/lcc_montages.pdf

http://www.natwindpower.co.uk/littlecheynecourt/index.asp

Hi Joanne,
The crucial fact to me (and my small brain), is 'will birds recognise them as a hazzard and avoid them?' I dont know the answer, but if it is 'no', then there must be a way of achieving this. We can send rockets to Mars for God sake!
 
The birds don't even see them coming.

With a swept area bigger than a premiership football field and blades 50 m long with blade tip speeds of about 175mph passing at one every 2/3 to 1.3 seconds there's no chance. It's like expecting a bird to get out of the way of an aircraft. They stretch upwards to over 400 feet above the ground and the turbines are spaced about one every 500m. A line of mincing machines.

The Valencia regional government in Spain has just ordered the shutting down of two wind-farms (43 turbines) which are responsible for the killing of 200 griffon vultures as well as other birds.

There is evidence world wide of vultures, eagles and other large raptors, other birds and bats being swatted out of the sky by these environmentally-friendly monsters.
 
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The birds don't even see them coming.

With a swept area bigger than a premiership football field and blades 50 m long with blade tip speeds of about 175mph passing at one every 2/3 to 1.3 seconds there's no chance. It's like expecting a bird to get out of the way of an aircraft. They stretch upwards to over 400 feet above the ground and the turbines are spaced about one every 500m. A line of mincing machines.


It has occurred to me that they could put some kind of cage around the revolving blades which would stop medium sized/big birds flying into the blades. I wonder why this isn't put forward as a solution to bird dicing and slicing......too expensive? Hummm. As Paul says.....if they can get to Mars....

What I find particularly distressing is that in the particular case I cited above on Wallands Marsh both Greenpeace and Friends of the Earth supported the application for the windfarm (despite local opposition from local wildlife groups) knowing it is an important habitat and less than 10 miles from the RSPB reserve at Dungeness. Does anyone else think it's double standards?
 
Can you actually imagine a cage over 400 feet high, wide enough to contain blades with a diameter of over 100m which need to be able to rotate also through 360 degrees in the vertical axis to allow the turbine to always face the wind from whatever direction?

A cage with a mesh small enough to prevent the passage of birds, but large enough so that it did not interrupt the all-important clean flow of wind to the blades? What materials would it be made from? How could it be supported?

Each cage the size of a skycraper, but transparent to the wind.

Rockets to Mars are simple in comparison. These engineering impossibilities would be more akin to building a ladder to Mars.
 
A cage with a mesh small enough to prevent the passage of birds, but large enough so that it did not interrupt the all-important clean flow of wind to the blades? What materials would it be made from? How could it be supported?

.

Yeah, I did think of that....but I'm not a scientist and don't know / understand the physics of it all, maybe it's impossible. I'm just hoping for a workable/practical solution given all the impossibilities of the greater problems of too much energy consumption and our societies' apparent refusal to cut down on energy use.

I find the example I cited above very, very depressing. Marsh harriers are breeding here now after an absence of some 30-40 years and now these monsters come along .......will it mean the end for them?
 
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Marsh harriers are breeding here now after an absence of some 30-40 years and now these monsters come along .......will it mean the end for them?

Not necessarily. It isn't strictly true to say that birds don't see them coming, as studies show that most species do usually avoid wind turbines rather than fly blindly in to them.

In the case of hen harriers, a 99% avoidance rate has been suggested. There is a paper here that discusses this in more depth (although it is admittedly not peer-reviewed).

There is also this review of impacts on birds around windfarms that may be of interest. It is probably the most comprehensive so far.

Of course there is potential for a badly sited windfarm to cause a lot of damage (as has been the case in the USA and Spain). Areas with high concentrations of birds, and large slow flying birds are the main risk factor. To date, though, I don't think there is much evidence that the currently operational windfarms in this country are doing much harm to our bird populations.
 
Why dont they paint stripes on the blades then as they go round they will be coloured lines for the birds to see.Rather than use just white ones that shouldent cost much.
 
Here in California, the wind farm at Altamont Pass has become synonymous with bird kills. However, a lot of good work has been done as a result to study the bird mortality, and figure out how to design and operate the turbines to minimize the threat to birds. They have torn down the most lethal turbines and replaced many with much larger, slower, and taller turbines, with greater clearance between the blades and the ground. What's more, they disable turbines in the winter, when energy production is lowest and bird mortality was highest.

As a chemist and an environmentalist, I know that everything we do to extract energy from natural resources has an impact on the environment. I know that the coal-burning plants that we can idle, thanks to development of renewable energy sources, have a huge benefit for the environment, not just the birds, but for the entire ecosystem. No energy source is without its downsides. By conducting research into the risks presented to birds by wind farms, evolving designs, and careful siting, we can do far more good than harm by developing wind energy.

In the US there is an ongoing embarrassing story of opposition to offshore wind farms off the New England coast by wealthy locals who don't want their view of the horizon at sea cluttered while they're out sailing in their yachts. These same people are ardent environmentalists, until doing the right the thing has some noticeable negative impact on their own lives. It's an understandable reaction, but it seems terribly selfish for the neutral observer. I sometimes feel the same embarrassment at the tone of the reaction of the birding community to the development of wind farms.

I wish, instead, that bird lovers would insist on careful review of wind farms with respect to bird mortality, impacting design, siting, and operating hours. The wind farms that turn out to be blunders for wildlife preservation can be taken down, as they were in Altamont Pass. To insist that all wind farms everywhere are an unacceptable abomination doesn't serve the cause of wildlife preservation as much as a more balanced and reasoned approach. It also doesn't serve the far bigger problem, namely, the challenge of finding a sustainable way to maintain the presence of some seven thousand million people on this overworked planet.
 
Some fair comments. But not forgetting of course that some places are more crowded than others, and here in Britain, we are looking at windfarms being built in some of the last wildernessy type areas remaining many of which also do happen to be especially good for wildlife . . . (including offshore in the major feeding grounds of Scoters - the impact on which is possibly unknown/unknowable until they've gone up)

The whole thing isn't black and white, whilst there's so many people, and them all wanting to or actually consuming too much energy, it's always going to be difficult to meet demand in anything approaching an environmentally sustainable way . . . agreed.

What's the Carbon Footprint for building a Wind Turbine incidentally? In terms of the turbine structure itself, concrete used for the foundations and in access roads . . I'm sure a fair bit . . but we digress a bit . . .
 
Wind Power - a poor solution

Wind power poses as a green solution. Then you butt up against the reality - HUGE tracts of land given over to monster machines to produce something reminiscent of a scene from "War of the Worlds". A company just announced plans to build a farm just north of us in some of the most beautiful, as yet unspoiled land. They'll use over 30,000 acres. This is green? Years ago in California I watched my favorite ridge-top hiking area, a paradise in spring, completely given over to these machines. That was the end of hiking there, it was completely spoiled.

It isn't elitist to dislike wind farms, it's realistic. Give me a nuclear plant any day. :C
 
Wind power poses as a green solution. Then you butt up against the reality - HUGE tracts of land given over to monster machines to produce something reminiscent of a scene from "War of the Worlds". A company just announced plans to build a farm just north of us in some of the most beautiful, as yet unspoiled land. They'll use over 30,000 acres. This is green? Years ago in California I watched my favorite ridge-top hiking area, a paradise in spring, completely given over to these machines. That was the end of hiking there, it was completely spoiled.

It isn't elitist to dislike wind farms, it's realistic. Give me a nuclear plant any day. :C

I've already said my piece, and I won't argue with you about your objections, they are valid.

One my least favorite phrases, though, is "Not In My BackYard." We face big problems that affect the entire planet. The Connecticut yachters, e.g., shouldn't have a disproportionate say in how we find solutions to our problems.

I agree that nuclear plants are a good alternative to coal-burning plants. However, an important distinction: nuclear plants use another finite resource, Uranium, which is far more fossilized (created in super-novas billions of years ago) than carbonaceous fossil fuels. We only have decades, perhaps a century or two, of fissile fuels available on Earth -- so nuclear energy is not a long-term sustainable solution.
 
Some fair comments. But not forgetting of course that some places are more crowded than others, and here in Britain, we are looking at windfarms being built in some of the last wildernessy type areas remaining many of which also do happen to be especially good for wildlife . . . (including offshore in the major feeding grounds of Scoters - the impact on which is possibly unknown/unknowable until they've gone up)

The whole thing isn't black and white, whilst there's so many people, and them all wanting to or actually consuming too much energy, it's always going to be difficult to meet demand in anything approaching an environmentally sustainable way . . . agreed.

What's the Carbon Footprint for building a Wind Turbine incidentally? In terms of the turbine structure itself, concrete used for the foundations and in access roads . . I'm sure a fair bit . . but we digress a bit . . .

Scoters, like most seabirds, tend to fly near the water -- so a design that keeps turbines well above the water may do the trick to keep them safe.

I understand that the wilderness areas in the UK are more precious than those in the US. That said, the flip side is that humans have wreaked enormous carnage on wildlife populations where we have terraformed the entire landscape; and the UK just has a big head start on this. This has occurred over the last couple of millennia in the UK, and is ongoing in the US. The idea that wind farms are an unacceptable insult to wildlife seems disproportionate with the massive harm that has been caused over the decades and centuries and millennia with the clearing of forests, draining of wetlands, etc.

Wind farms represent one of the most environmentally forgiving ways to extract energy that we can avail ourselves of. I just ask that people think of the big picture before they actively oppose a practice that compares favorably to nearly all of the alternatives.
 
If any of the present windfarms are anything to go by, the government doesnt give a toss where they place them. There are several species of rare raptors that have already found they have new neighbours with more to come. You talk of birds being able to avoid them , but when they are erected smack bang in the middle of breeding territories then im afraid that collision is inevitable, as someone previously pointed out, they only need to collide with them once.. Gordon Brown is an ******** who is leading a party of ********s, we are the most watched country in the world and the way he is talking we'll soon be the biggest windfarm in the world
 
What is also frightening,the government intend to change the planning laws to attempt to get round,the planning objections to these abominations.Of course there will also be a cctv camera on everyone.So if you are having a quick drag somewhat overweight with a bottle of beer in your hand ,you will be straight on the database.I wonder who polishes Mr Broon's jackboots.

POP

You are correct Pop, this government will do anything to get around objections. Wait till id cards raise their heads again( its on the backburner for now, losing the personal details of 25 million people saw to that). Lets face it Labour have run their course and its time for the dour Scot to disappear from where ever he crawled out from
 
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