Windermere Canada geese cull to go ahead (1 Viewer)

fellsman · Mar 10, 2012

captaincarot said:
next step for the authority, will be shooting tourists dogs for crapping on the pavement too

they'll not need to shoot the dogs ,they'll poison themselves drinking water with blue green algae from the lake as happened with a visitors dog last year.
The blue green algae also caused the cancellation of the great Windermere swim a year or two since !!!

AlfArbuthnot · Mar 10, 2012

Adam W said:
Thats got no relavance as to wether his opinion is right though has it. We all know who Hitler is but that hardly means his opinions should be listened too does it?

Exactly. A couple of billion people know who Wayne Rooney is, would you care for his opinion on how to tackle the problems of feral geese?

I'm not asking anyone to take my opinion, I'm suggesting we take the opinion of the Windermere Rangers and the working group that seems to be in place.

Protesting is easy. But you rarely see any workable alternatives written on the placards, do you?

devon.birder · Mar 10, 2012

AlfArbuthnot said:
Culling is much less frequent than it was. 40 years ago whole communities turned out to 'cull' the local rooks or rabbits. It was part of normal life. Each village had Sparrow Clubs, where small boys were encouraged to kill as many sparrows as they could. Badgers were gassed routinely.

That would be 1972 then. I moved from a rural part of Cornwall to a rural part of Somerset in 1972 and I certainly do not remember mass culls of rooks and rabbits. I had been birding for a few years then and I would have thought that I would have known about villages having Sparrow Clubs to kill Sparrows. What part of the UK did this happen in 1972. Roger

captaincarot · Mar 10, 2012

Adam W said:
Thats got no relavance as to wether his opinion is right though has it. We all know who Hitler is but that hardly means his opinions

ahhh godwins law fulfilled.

Robin Edwards · Mar 10, 2012

A rather surreal thread this one

........ Maybe we need some birds to distract us?

Canada Geese artificillay released and what a surprise, they excrete fecal matter from their rear end - shock horror so best we control them before plague breaks out. (I don't have a problem by the way if culling is the only answer and the last resort

).
Now Brian May who like some of us actually cares about his environment, so we compare the guy to Hitler.
And in the same thread we've cast all those who believe that free-speech and protest can actually do some good to room 101?

Nice one.

Robin Edwards · Mar 10, 2012

AlfArbuthnot said:
Protesting is easy. But you rarely see any workable alternatives written on the placards, do you?

Shooting things is easy. But you rarely see the gunsmen first suggesting workable alternatives on Birdforum do you?

AlfArbuthnot · Mar 10, 2012

devon.birder said:
AlfArbuthnot said:

Culling is much less frequent than it was. 40 years ago whole communities turned out to 'cull' the local rooks or rabbits. It was part of normal life. Each village had Sparrow Clubs, where small boys were encouraged to kill as many sparrows as they could. Badgers were gassed routinely.

That would be 1972 then. I moved from a rural part of Cornwall to a rural part of Somerset in 1972 and I certainly do not remember mass culls of rooks and rabbits. I had been birding for a few years then and I would have thought that I would have known about villages having Sparrow Clubs to kill Sparrows. What part of the UK did this happen in 1972. Roger

Click to expand...

Rook shoots still happen! http://www.shootingtimes.co.uk/homefeature/256826/Joe_Dimbleby_goes_rook_shooting.html

It used to be a part of the village calendar, but is now mainly groups of friends or farmers. But it still happens, very commonly.

Sparrow clubs had probably gone by the 1970s, you're right, although pretty much every rural parish had one in the 19th Century, and some probably into the mid 20th.

AlfArbuthnot · Mar 10, 2012

Robin Edwards said:
Shooting things is easy. But you rarely see the gunsmen first suggesting workable alternatives on Birdforum do you?

Well, let's take the case in hand, shall we? The workable alternatives being suggested (egg pricking) have been tried, and failed, according to the article. So what's your next suggestion? Perhaps carrying the polluted water away in buckets and replacing it with something fresh from the tap? Maybe taking the geese somewhere else, so that they can pollute another lake instead? Or perhaps training them to use latrines that the council can come and empty every thursday?

So, with regard to the geese at Windermere, what would you suggest instead of culling to reduce the pollution and protect the lake? What is YOUR workable alternative?

AlfArbuthnot · Mar 10, 2012

Robin Edwards said:
And in the same thread we've cast all those who believe that free-speech and protest can actually do some good to room 101?

Nobody mentioned free speech, just the listening to it.

If we did what the majority wanted all the time then we'd have reintroduced hanging and have expelled all immigrants long ago. There's protest, and there's the mob. Deciding which one it is rather depends on whether you agree with them, but I'm sure you'd agree that we shouldn't necessarily listen to the majority or give in to protest?

Robin Edwards · Mar 10, 2012

AlfArbuthnot said:
Nobody mentioned free speech, just the listening to it.

If we did what the majority wanted all the time then we'd have reintroduced hanging and have expelled all immigrants long ago. There's protest, and there's the mob. Deciding which one it is rather depends on whether you agree with them, but I'm sure you'd agree that we shouldn't necessarily listen to the majority or give in to protest?

Anyway, back to Geese. I think you've just missed my point suggesting this has become a surreal thread. Like I've said, if geese need to be controlled and the "experts" have decided it is the only answer then all fine and dandy.

I do love though how a thread with the word "cull" in it always brings out those who like to exercise their right to bare arms irrespective of there being alternatives that they personally hadn't considered.

And I remember 1972 too. I hope there aren't any wart-faced women with black cats out there - best they watch themselves aye?

AlfArbuthnot · Mar 10, 2012

Robin Edwards said:
I do love though how a thread with the word "cull" in it always brings out those who like to exercise their right to bare arms irrespective of there being alternatives that they personally hadn't considered.

People are allowed to wear t-shirts if they wish

(sorry, old joke on the bear/bare error!)

But I don't think anyone has suggested culling as a first option on this thread?

It's pretty clear from the article that other things have been tried, and failed, so it's either culling or not culling. No obvious alternative if the pollution issue is to be addressed.

AlfArbuthnot · Mar 10, 2012

Robin Edwards said:
And I remember 1972 too. I hope there aren't any wart-faced women with black cats out there - best they watch themselves aye?

Worth remembering that most birds only got proper legal protection in 1981. Many mammals still have no legal protection at all, and can be killed at any time.

Adam W · Mar 10, 2012

captaincarot said:
Adam W said:

Thats got no relavance as to wether his opinion is right though has it. We all know who Hitler is but that hardly means his opinions

ahhh godwins law fulfilled.

Click to expand...

I knew you'd come back with that( nothing that actually suggests i wasnt right though i notice) but it this case it was simply a valid point, being well known doesnt make your opinion correct wether you be Hitler, Brian May, Wayne Rooney or anybody else.

ChrisKten · Mar 10, 2012

I've just been thinking (yeah, I don't do it often unless I have too), and I can't see how this cull is going to work.

If there's 1000+ Geese, and you kill 200, that leaves 800+. I'd assume that at least 200 pairs would breed successfully, and have at least 3 young per pair?

So, ignoring mortalities (they'll have more than 3 young anyway?) 3 * 200 = 600; + 800 = 1400, yes?

They've still got more than they started with, so what was the point?

Pricking eggs would mean no increase in numbers (well, less increase), killing 200 means more Geese. Or is there a part to this equation that I'm missing, not being an "expert"?

AlfArbuthnot · Mar 10, 2012

ChrisKten said:
I've just been thinking (yeah, I don't do it often unless I have too), and I can't see how this cull is going to work.

If there's 1000+ Geese, and you kill 200, that leaves 800+. I'd assume that at least 200 pairs would breed successfully, and have at least 3 young per pair?

So, ignoring mortalities (they'll have more than 3 young anyway?) 3 * 200 = 600; + 800 = 1400, yes?

They've still got more than they started with, so what was the point?

Pricking eggs would mean no increase in numbers (well, less increase), killing 200 means more Geese. Or is there a part to this equation that I'm missing, not being an "expert"?

A good point, in that it's sticking your finger in the dyke, but I suspect this is a trial, to get over the 'hump' of the inevitable opinions of some of the public. Once it happens and 200 are done away with, they may well look at the logistics and see how it could be 300 or 500 later on.

But your logic is flawed in that if they do not cull, then you're still adding the young, so next year you'd have 1600 rather than 1400. In fact, you have another 300 on top of that, from the 100 pairs you never removed. So 1900 if you do nothing, and 1400 if you do (it will be much more complicated than that, but for the sake of the simple calculations you've made).

So culling doesn't just remove the birds you kill, it also removes any future young they would have contributed to the problem.

birdboybowley · Mar 10, 2012

The sad thing is, it's people that need culling!

Tarsiger · Mar 10, 2012

birdboybowley said:
The sad thing is, it's people that need culling!

Obviously!!
(But not anyone on Birdforum of course!!)
Russ

MJB · Mar 11, 2012

Robin Edwards said:
I do love though how a thread with the word "cull" in it always brings out those who like to exercise their right to bare arms irrespective of there being alternatives that they personally hadn't considered.

Robin,
I think you mean 'bear arms', not 'bare arms'....wait a minute, after seeing all those obese people sunbathing on the beach last year, perhaps I should concede you were right after all!:-O
MJB

Robin Edwards · Mar 11, 2012

MJB said:
Robin,
I think you mean 'bear arms', not 'bare arms'....wait a minute, after seeing all those obese people sunbathing on the beach last year, perhaps I should concede you were right after all!:-O
MJB

Ah indeed yes - MJB - correct on both counts I believe

John o'Sullivan · Mar 11, 2012

This is an excellent idea. It is such a good idea that I propose that all populations of geese should be culled on a regular basis whether they are wild populations or introduced ones.

Water purity must be maintained and if relatively small numbers of geese can impose such a severe strain on the eco-system they must be killed worldwide.

What about the increase in avocet numbers, little egrets, spoonbills. Vast amounts of excrement putting pressure on water quality. It may seem paradoxical but if the only way to preserve the eco-system is the culling of avocets then the RSPB should lead the way. We must lead by example and not be led by sentiment.

Windermere Canada geese cull to go ahead (1 Viewer)

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