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Should a gas pipeline be driven through the Brecon Beacons? (1 Viewer)

W

Whirling Dervish

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The plan is already in action, there are trucks and lorries and over 1000 workers sprawling over the 115 mile trench that will house the pipeline from Felindre (Swansea) to Tirley (Gloucestershire) which passes through 20 miles of the Brecon Beacon National Park. The tankers arrive in Milford Haven from Indonesia with a cargo of supercooled Liquid natural gas (LNG) which is converted into its more familiar gas form into the pipe that links the Felindre pipe. This is the future of British fossil fuels, an underground grid of gaspipes that guarantees a resevoir of gas in case of emergency. The port is Milford Haven and not Bristol because this ensures a very long pipe, a very long chamber of gas.
As an ecologist with experience of the fairly stringent legislation regarding developments over land, i am flabbergasted that this plan has recieved a swift nod from the government. As a realist in this current political climate of depleted oil supplies I am not surprised at all. The greenpeace protesters are occupying the pipes and I support that. It is not so much the development itself, but the farcical claims of sound ecological consideration.
If this kind of development needs to go ahead because of overiding public interest, well thats something that will happen no matter what. What I cant understand or fully believe is why they are rushing into this development at the full expense of the environment. The plan is to have the pipe covered in 6 months, they also ensure us that careful ecological survey and mitigation will also be in motion by then too. How can acceptable standards be achieved in that time? Its not just the trench which is a phenomenal operation by itself but what about the surrounding habitats that will be churned up and disturbed by the 4x4's, diggers and massive human presence. Will they replant the trees and hedges they knock down for the trench? Brecon Beacons alone is a very complex and sensitive landscape which is very important habitat for dormice, bats, badgers and crayfish, which are not easily found but very easily disturbed.
No ecologist in their right mind would work this contract, so who is doing this phenomenal ecological work? someone with a substantial level of moral flexibility no doubt.
 
Seems that when the goverment wants something done then the rule book is torn up. Im sure that some damage has already been done in the Beacons park , it was caused by the off road vechicles driven by surveyors for the project. Doesnt bode well for the main opperation. This whole project , as you say is pushing ahead with undue haste. Is there something they know that we dont;-). To be honest this present government and our Assembly dont give a toss for this fair green land of ours
 
Fountain said:
see: Some points raised in the comments
...... I have been watching the natural ecology around the pipeline being destroyed. But all the news channels are effectively gagged even though there has been/Is extremely serious contamination of water courses/rivers etc.
Click to expand...


The village of Llyswen copped a lot of mud washed down from the pipeline workings in the heavy rain recently.
The seeming complete lack of local consultation or debate took everyone by surprise.
The first sign that local people knew of this project was the construction of a huge construction depot in the village. Rumours abound that the depot, which is situated on the site where the village show was traditionally held, will subsequently be made available for residential development.
I'm not sure there is an 'overiding public interest' in the use of imported gas with concerns over changing climate.
Sometimes the quality of democracy has to be questioned.
 
Whirling Dervish said:
The plan is already in action, there are trucks and lorries and over 1000 workers sprawling over the 115 mile trench that will house the pipeline from Felindre (Swansea) to Tirley (Gloucestershire) which passes through 20 miles of the Brecon Beacon National Park.
Click to expand...

Look at the positive side. A useful and realistic training facility for the boys from the SAS. Who knows when they will need experience in such skills (destroying an underground pipeline) in whatever global adventure GWB or his successors draw us into next ;)

David
 
scooby said:
The village of Llyswen copped a lot of mud washed down from the pipeline workings in the heavy rain recently.
The seeming complete lack of local consultation or debate took everyone by surprise.
The first sign that local people knew of this project was the construction of a huge construction depot in the village. Rumours abound that the depot, which is situated on the site where the village show was traditionally held, will subsequently be made available for residential development.
I'm not sure there is an 'overiding public interest' in the use of imported gas with concerns over changing climate.
Sometimes the quality of democracy has to be questioned.
Click to expand...

Lets face it democracy is a word thats bandied about but means next to nothing. When the powers that be decide they need to get something done then its going to happen, regardless of the opinion of locals.
 
valley boy said:
Lets face it democracy is a word thats bandied about but means next to nothing. When the powers that be decide they need to get something done then its going to happen, regardless of the opinion of locals.
Click to expand...

Looks like part two might be more transparent. Welsh assembly involvement should give it a better debate this time around.
 
scooby said:
Looks like part two might be more transparent. Welsh assembly involvement should give it a better debate this time around.
Click to expand...

I wouldnt bank on it, the WA is a total waste of time you only have to look at the state of the schools and health service to realise that they couldnt run the proverbial piss up in a brewery. The AMs just look after their own self interests (check out Carwyn Jones and the Scarweather Sands windfarm). Silly question :but is there any reasons these terminals and pipelines have to be built on the west coast of Wales and then ripped right across our country. Perhaps we have the right type of earth? That would be similar to the the garbage answer one windfarm surveyor told me when asked why Wales was being seen as the best place for them, we have the right type of wind:smoke:
 
valley boy said:
I wouldnt bank on it, the WA is a total waste of time you only have to look at the state of the schools and health service to realise that they couldnt run the proverbial piss up in a brewery. The AMs just look after their own self interests (check out Carwyn Jones and the Scarweather Sands windfarm). Silly question :but is there any reasons these terminals and pipelines have to be built on the west coast of Wales and then ripped right across our country. Perhaps we have the right type of earth? That would be similar to the the garbage answer one windfarm surveyor told me when asked why Wales was being seen as the best place for them, we have the right type of wind:smoke:
Click to expand...

I think Milford Haven is the obvious choice due its current status as a deep water oil port.
Quite how it got to be a such a belching industrial carbuncle in the midst of a national park (now) and designated area of outstanding natural beauty (then)..is another subject.
With regard to the proposed second pipeline, if Plaid Cymru manage to get this going as a nationalist issue (as I think it should) I'd be very surprsed if they managed to get it built.
I'm just upset and depressed that they got to put the first one through without really telling anyone.
 
apart from the duplicate, a gas powered station has the go ahead with the build at MH..... without planning permission or a public enquiry.
.........

back to pipeline.

94BAR 1,300 odd psi . Never tested before with this kind of construction anywhere in the world ( higher pressures have, & been used in 3rd world countries but not with this pipe construction)

1000's of people have been vapourised from explosions resulting from leaks from large gas pipes..rarely reported.

Mynydd Mydffai, once a cat 1 wilderness status/ nat geo site now has a 80m wide scar over primeavil bog that is no more, as the pipe is shrouded in acres of gravel to protect it from the enevitable sciesmic activity in the area, last quake, october 1999, 4.0 richter scale. The bog/forest surround was home to many rare birds- not anymore.

Pipeline has been laid thru an area deemed too unstable for mains domestic gas supply.

A duplicate pipeline to be laid...why? read the document. as if geological concerns arn't enough..terror attacks like those in Mexicao Venizuela etc on their pipelines?.

This 80m wide 200km pipeline has been laid without any planning permission via usual routes, or a public enquiry....


And Yorkshire Folk beware, that lovely moorland you have around blubberhouses etc is about to be desicrated with the start of another 48" High pressure trunk gas mains that runs to Lancs..
 
There was a talk on this yeasterday - seeIndependant Media Report
. The impact on Birding life here has been visible. Reed Buntings, so common in summer, I have not seen.... masses of skylarks have deserted , and the woodcock seems to have left ( there was a large population over an area of around 3 sq miles along side the forest where the pipeline has been laid.
 
"As an ecologist with experience of the fairly stringent legislation regarding developments over land, i am flabbergasted that this plan has recieved a swift nod from the government."

This project was in consultation for years prior to it's true start in 2005.

"If this kind of development needs to go ahead because of overiding public interest, well thats something that will happen no matter what. What I cant understand or fully believe is why they are rushing into this development at the full expense of the environment."

See above!

"The plan is to have the pipe covered in 6 months, they also ensure us that careful ecological survey and mitigation will also be in motion by then too. How can acceptable standards be achieved in that time? Its not just the trench which is a phenomenal operation by itself but what about the surrounding habitats that will be churned up and disturbed by the 4x4's, diggers and massive human presence. Will they replant the trees and hedges they knock down for the trench? Brecon Beacons alone is a very complex and sensitive landscape which is very important habitat for dormice, bats, badgers and crayfish, which are not easily found but very easily disturbed.
No ecologist in their right mind would work this contract, so who is doing this phenomenal ecological work? someone with a substantial level of moral flexibility no doubt."

By now you may guess that I am bored with the environmental sensationalism of this post.

Something less exciting to read!!
http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Gas/Pipelines/milfordhaven

There's even a map.

Regards

Malky
 
alcedo.atthis said:
"As an ecologist with experience of the fairly stringent legislation regarding developments over land, i am flabbergasted that this plan has recieved a swift nod from the government."

This project was in consultation for years prior to it's true start in 2005.

"If this kind of development needs to go ahead because of overiding public interest, well thats something that will happen no matter what. What I cant understand or fully believe is why they are rushing into this development at the full expense of the environment."

See above!

"The plan is to have the pipe covered in 6 months, they also ensure us that careful ecological survey and mitigation will also be in motion by then too. How can acceptable standards be achieved in that time? Its not just the trench which is a phenomenal operation by itself but what about the surrounding habitats that will be churned up and disturbed by the 4x4's, diggers and massive human presence. Will they replant the trees and hedges they knock down for the trench? Brecon Beacons alone is a very complex and sensitive landscape which is very important habitat for dormice, bats, badgers and crayfish, which are not easily found but very easily disturbed.
No ecologist in their right mind would work this contract, so who is doing this phenomenal ecological work? someone with a substantial level of moral flexibility no doubt."

By now you may guess that I am bored with the environmental sensationalism of this post.
Something less exciting to read!!
http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/Gas/Pipelines/milfordhaven

There's even a map.

Regards

Malky
Click to expand...


Sorry to bore you.
I guess the reality of the proposal only really hit home to people when the scale of the work became apparent. It's one thing having a two minute news item with all sorts of cheesy smiles and reassurances. It's another to have your village blighted with industrial scale development and have some of the most beautiful landscapes in Britain literally scarred.
Lesson being, pay more attention and get involved sooner.
 
Whirling Dervish said:
No ecologist in their right mind would work this contract.
Click to expand...

Why? I would say the opposite, any ecologist worth his salt might want to be involved. First, as I understand this pipe is going to be underground, so for much of its route, most of the impact of this pipeline will be, by and large, the temporary disturbance factor. With an ecologist with some clout on board, possible route selection could be open to discussion, but more importantly, an ecologist will advice to restoration, what to replant, how to restore etc. Let's face it, birds won't give two hoots if there is a pipeline under the ground, so if the project is done with ecological restoration of the affected sites, then why should we?

As for the following points:


Reed Buntings, so common in summer, I have not seen.... masses of skylarks have deserted , and the woodcock seems to have left. There was a large population over an area of around 3 sq miles along side the forest where the pipeline has been laid.

It couldn't be anything to do with it being mid-August, could it? The time most of these birds fall silent and begin to leave the hills to winter grounds. Also, forgive me, but Reed Buntings and Skylarks breed within metres of major motorways, so I think a 3 sq mile zone is unlikely to have been deserted.


The village of Llyswen copped a lot of mud washed down from the pipeline workings in the heavy rain recently.

And? A temporary inconvenience at most. Anyhow, Wales gets plenty of rain, so it'll soon be washed away!


Rumours abound that the depot will subsequently be made available for residential development.

Rumours, but if turns out true, that should be fought as a separate issue if necessary. It is not a problem of the pipeline per se, but of the follow up.


Pipeline has been laid thru an area deemed too unstable for mains domestic gas supply.

I would guess they have engineers that have considered this!

In short, rather than a fruitless attack on the project as a whole, I would have thought it more productive for local environmentalists to concentrate their concerns on ensuring restoration does occur afterwards, ensuring hedges, etc are replanted.

Best wishes, ex-Gwent resident ;)
 
Can you "restore" or "replant" upland peat habitat once it has been excavated & removed?.

Renovating a pipe trench through pasture/improved grassland fine-but undisturbed upland peat in a National Park?-why was that section neccessary?


http://www.breconbeaconsparksociety.org/Society News/psNationalGridPipeline.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/6218852.stm


http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...objectid=18068112&siteid=50082-name_page.html

Bad luck to you all in Wales-this after the assault by useless windfarms must be the last straw.That you should have to see more of this must be heartbreaking


http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hills/cc/gallery/index.htm

Colin
 
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Jos Stratford said:
Why? I would say the opposite, any ecologist worth his salt might want to be involved. First, as I understand this pipe is going to be underground, so for much of its route, most of the impact of this pipeline will be, by and large, the temporary disturbance factor. With an ecologist with some clout on board, possible route selection could be open to discussion, but more importantly, an ecologist will advice to restoration, what to replant, how to restore etc. Let's face it, birds won't give two hoots if there is a pipeline under the ground, so if the project is done with ecological restoration of the affected sites, then why should we?

As for the following points:


Reed Buntings, so common in summer, I have not seen.... masses of skylarks have deserted , and the woodcock seems to have left. There was a large population over an area of around 3 sq miles along side the forest where the pipeline has been laid.

It couldn't be anything to do with it being mid-August, could it? The time most of these birds fall silent and begin to leave the hills to winter grounds. Also, forgive me, but Reed Buntings and Skylarks breed within metres of major motorways, so I think a 3 sq mile zone is unlikely to have been deserted.


The village of Llyswen copped a lot of mud washed down from the pipeline workings in the heavy rain recently.

And? A temporary inconvenience at most. Anyhow, Wales gets plenty of rain, so it'll soon be washed away!


Rumours abound that the depot will subsequently be made available for residential development.

Rumours, but if turns out true, that should be fought as a separate issue if necessary. It is not a problem of the pipeline per se, but of the follow up.


Pipeline has been laid thru an area deemed too unstable for mains domestic gas supply.

I would guess they have engineers that have considered this!

In short, rather than a fruitless attack on the project as a whole, I would have thought it more productive for local environmentalists to concentrate their concerns on ensuring restoration does occur afterwards, ensuring hedges, etc are replanted.

Best wishes, ex-Gwent resident ;)
Click to expand...

Maybe this experience will ensure we'll have a fruitful attack on the propsed 2nd pipeline?
 
Tyke said:
Renovating a pipe trench through pasture/improved grassland fine-but undisturbed upland peat in a National Park?-why was that section neccessary?
Click to expand...

Agreed, as I mentioned in my first post, this is where I think conservationists could most productively concentrate ther efforts, to ensure the best (least worst) route, then to ensure clean up/restoration afterwards.

Tyke said:
Can you "restore" or "replant" upland peat habitat once it has been excavated & removed?.
Click to expand...

Yes, even if it has been subject to peat removal for commercial peat usage, the latter far more damaging than laying a pipeline. Again though, I agree better to avoid the damage in the first place by chosing better route for these sections. Clearly the damage already caused Mynydd Myddfai by pipeline vehicles can be rectified, a fact acknowledged by Brecknock Wildlife Trust.
 
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Tyke said:
I would be interested to see your source for that.
On the basis of this link-it's a hit & miss afair which doesn't really restore the ecosystem lost.

http://www.newscientist.com/article...ng-peat-bogs-could-disappear-altogether-.html
Click to expand...


Google peatland restoration for starters - ignore sites linked to peat extraction companies if you wish, but plenty more. None claim peatland restoration to be an easy process, which I didn't claim it to be. However, those are largely dealing with restoration after commercial peat extraction, a process that has actually removed from the locality most of the peat and is much more extensive. The pipeline damage is likely to be more localised and, I can be wrong, but I see no reason that they will actually remove the peat from the site nor put in drainage, thus it should be less of a task than in commercial sites.

However, as I stated in my first post, I would still say rerouting is a more preferable option ...my point at the outset, however, is to look at the whole project and ask, if ecologists are on board and are listened to, is a pipeline underground necessarily so destructive. I doubt it, though you probably have a different opinion.

Incidently, Lithuania is littered with peatlands that have been extensively worked. Though there are currently a couple of commercial activities that should never been allowed to happen, the vast majority of earlier worked sites seem to be quite actively regenerating - maybe older peat workings didn't cut so deep, I don't know, but the sites I visit are now some of the richest wildlife sites in the country, holding huge numbers of breeding Cranes, etc, rich in orchids, etc.
 
Interesting.
Have read a little more.
Looks like lowland peat deposits of significant depth have a chance provided they are not drained to dessication.
Upland peat areas are rarely worked commercially-not deep enough. So these are more vulnerable to dessication when removed.
From the locals who have posted here it seems pretty clear that the pipeline excavation will not be restored-gravel & packing replacing the peat/substrate.
This is just like the approach on Welsh upland wind farm pipe ducts, approach roads etc.
Seems to me there is a huge difference between deep lowland peat restoration efforts involving commercial extractors & serious ecologists...and digging trenches & roads across welsh uplands with the usual care demonstrated by these contractors.
But it's a question of fact-does the pipeline contract specify peatland restoration?-I suspect not.
The Brecknock WLT comment you mentioned was in respect of churning by inspection vehicles I think-a different matter to trenching & peat removal.
 
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